Archtops with p90 vs Charlie Christian pickup

**Bebop Tom** · 01-21-2011, 06:49 PM

For jazz playing I have always used archtop guitars with built-in humbuckers (L5CES, Guild X500, etc). I have been listening to a lot of early bop recordings by Kenny Burrell, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow, Jim Hall, Rene Thomas etc when they used guitars with either Charlie Christian pickups, or p90 pickups. I am now desiring an old ES 150 with CC pickups from the 30's, or an ES 175 from the 50's with a single p90. Do any of you folks have experience with either type guitar? I do not have interest in retro-fitting a humbucker sized p90 or CC pickup to my current guitars. I want the real thing. I am aware that several of these guitarists switched to humbucker guitars in the 60's (except Rene Thomas), but I am listening to their stuff from the 1950's. Those old single coils sure sounded great for bebop.

**fordfanjpn** · 01-21-2011, 06:58 PM

I have a 1950 ES-175 with a single P90 and I'm hoping to pick up a 1948 ES-125 this weekend, also with a single P90. I haven't played any "new" guitars that sound the same, but the old guitars can get pricey. The ES-125's are still fairly reasonable though, so if you're interested in that sound, maybe check one of those out.

Bill

**Stackabones** · 01-21-2011, 06:59 PM

I have experience with P90 but in a solid body git. I love 'em!

That's a tough choice you've got to make, but I'd go with the ES150 w/ the CC in it -- mainly because CC pups are so hard to come across (good luck finding one at your local guitar shop), and to upgrade a git with a CC is going to cost some serious coin. I think Lollar has one for $300+, and then you've got to get it installed. Also, there has been a bit of a resurgence of P90-equipped gits, so you may have more than just the vintage market in which to shop.

**fordfanjpn** · 01-21-2011, 07:02 PM

Since you've been playing L5's and the like, you might prefer the ES-150 as it has a 17" body and 25.5" scale. I have only seen ones with a single P90, but if you can find with a CC pickup, it should be a killer guitar.

Bill

**Bebop Tom** · 01-21-2011, 08:01 PM

Thanks for the quick responses. Is an old style amp necessary to team with those old guitars to get an authentic classic tone (i.e fender tweed or an old Gibson amp)? I tend to use blackface Fenders which were not around in the 1950's. That early Kenny Burrell sound (ES 175 with p90 through a Fender Tweed Deluxe) is great. So is the CC pickup guitars through a Gibson amp.

**NSJ** · 01-21-2011, 08:10 PM

The Lollar CC for "Humbucker route" just fits into the HB slot with no mods--just swap it out like you normally would with any other pup

**Eddie Lang** · 01-21-2011, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bebop Tom

I am now desiring an old ES 150 with CC pickups from the 30's, or an ES 175 from the 50's with a single p90. Do any of you folks have experience with either type guitar? I do not have interest in retro-fitting a humbucker sized p90 or CC pickup to my current guitars. I want the real thing.

Not an ES-175, but I have a late 1950's ES-225 with a P-90 and I think it sounds fantastic.

I understand your desire for getting the real thing instead of getting a new version or even retro-fitting a guitar. Vintage guitars are what they are and, while guitars just as good can be made today, nothing is the SAME as the old ones. IMHO, if you want the vintage vibe, you get a vintage guitar.

Originally Posted by Bebop Tom

Is an old style amp necessary to team with those old guitars to get an authentic classic tone (i.e fender tweed or an old Gibson amp)?

I have played my ES-225 through a JazzAmp 12 and still do, and it work well, but I recently got a late 1950's Gibson GA-8 to go with that guitar and I absolutely love that combination.

Now, GAS being what it is, I have started browsing around, looking for an ES-150 with CC and an EH-150 amp to go with it. Something like the pic below:

Isn't that little group cute?

**Bebop Tom** · 01-21-2011, 09:49 PM

Awesome looking combos.

**Stackabones** · 01-21-2011, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bebop Tom

Thanks for the quick responses. Is an old style amp necessary to team with those old guitars to get an authentic classic tone (i.e fender tweed or an old Gibson amp)? I tend to use blackface Fenders which were not around in the 1950's. That early Kenny Burrell sound (ES 175 with p90 through a Fender Tweed Deluxe) is great. So is the CC pickup guitars through a Gibson amp.

I don't think you need a vintage amp to get a vintage sound, though if you've got the coin then go for it. One thing you could maybe look at is retro styled amps, like a Stimer ...

Or Peche a la mouche ...

Or something from Swart Amps ...

**Steve Z** · 01-21-2011, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie Lang

... Now, GAS being what it is, I have started browsing around, looking for an ES-150 with CC and an EH-150 amp to go with it. Something like the pic below:

Isn't that little group cute?

I love this picture. I think this package sold on eBay aoub t4-6 months ago for around $4000. I was watching the auction, but alas... all I could do was watch

BTW, I really like playing my 1958 ES-125, though it does need a refret desperately.

Cheers,
Steve Z

**cjm** · 01-21-2011, 10:27 PM

That's why I had this done...

http://picasaweb.google.com/10715421...74156349969314

**fordfanjpn** · 01-22-2011, 12:06 AM

Originally Posted by cjm

That's why I had this done...

Picasa Web Albums - Colin Mattoon - guitar-mods

How did it turn out? Are you happy with the sound? I'm thinking about doing the same thing with an old Silvertone archtop that I have.

Bill

**cjm** · 01-22-2011, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by fordfanjpn

How did it turn out? Are you happy with the sound? I'm thinking about doing the same thing with an old Silvertone archtop that I have.

Bill

I'm quite pleased with it. Oh, anytime you do something like this, you wind up rationalizing the decision.

But I really do think the Lollar CC is an exceptionally nice pickup and well matched to the Washburn's mahogany plywood body. I'd describe the combination as "warm but articulate," for lack of a better phrase.

**amusiathread** · 01-22-2011, 01:07 AM

Hey Bebop Tom. I'll throw in my two cents, in case you're still following this thread:

I'm a huge fan of both P90's and CC pickups, and have had a lot of first-hand experience with both of them. I love the P90's clean tone, and I think it really wakes up and sounds even better when you add just a touch of overdrive. Between the two, the CC's are often said to have a more distinctive clean sound, like a mid-way point between a P90 and a Tele pickup. But it's my opinion that while the CC sounds great clean, it doesn't sound good when you begin to add overdrive.

I feel that I can get several tasteful and distinctive jazzy tones from a P90. But while I think that while the CC's sound great for that one tone, there isn't much else they can do well, they're not nearly as versatile as P90's.

**Bebop Tom** · 01-22-2011, 01:28 AM

By overdrive, are you referring to turning up a tube amp until it slightly crunches a bit, or are you referring to actual distortion from a pedal? Charlie Christian had a slightly overdriven sound due to his low wattage amp, and he sounded great. Very hornlike. I know that p90s are used in solidbody guitars for rock and blues, but I am focusing on hollowbodies in a jazz context. Can you clarify? I do like a bit of tube saturation in my tone, which many jazz players used in the old days.

**amusiathread** · 01-22-2011, 01:38 AM

By overdrive, I do mean that subtle tube saturation, where the amp is driven just to the point of warming up nicely.

Also, to be clear, I am referring to P90's in a hollowbody, strictly in a jazz setting.

To be fair, it is possible that I never found the perfect amp to work with the CC pickup, but my opinion still stands that the P90 is more versatile, as I can seem to find good tones with P90's regardless of what amps I'm using.

Also, it bears mentioning that I play solo jazz exclusively. So a tone that doesn't sound great to me in a solo setting may sound perfect while accompanying a band, and the perfect solo tone may only work for that setting.

Hope this helps!

**Bebop Tom** · 01-22-2011, 01:52 AM

It does. Thank you.

**Steve Z** · 01-22-2011, 10:42 AM

Here is my favorite YouTube clip (group) using an old ES-125...
YouTube - Kanaal van JazzzBox

**Steve Z** · 01-22-2011, 04:39 PM

Since the older ES-125-style guitars are getting so expensive, I thought some might find this video I found comparing the Gibson ES-125 with a Godin 5th Ave Kingpin...

**Geert** · 01-22-2011, 04:54 PM

The ultimate..

: ES-300 in the beginning of this vid:

**Bebop Tom** · 01-22-2011, 07:49 PM

Are there best years for p90 equipped Gibson archtops? Did the p90 pickup change at all from the late 40's to the late 50's?

**SamBooka** · 01-22-2011, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Z

Since the older ES-125-style guitars are getting so expensive, I thought some might find this video I found comparing the Gibson ES-125 with a Godin 5th Ave Kingpin...

Saw that vid a couple of days ago. All the more reason for me to buy a Gibson lol.

**amusiathread** · 01-22-2011, 07:59 PM

Can't go wrong with the 50's. I don't notice a huge difference between the 50's and 60's, only with later p90's from the 70's and 80's and 90's do I start to notice a very considerable difference.

There are some amazing pickup builders who can very convincingly do justice to a vintage pickup. So if it were a matter of buying a very nice, yet more recent guitar, and upgrading to a vintage or custom-wound P90, you could still do very well, and maybe even save a dime.

But you're probably tired of hearing from me, I'll stand back so you can ponder over it with other, very knowledgeable members.

**mattymel** · 01-22-2011, 09:20 PM

i think that the ES175 and the single P90 is in many ways the perfect jazz guitar. amplified its hard to beat. i have played probably 5 or so of that model from the early fifties and i would say 3 of them were great guitars. i DO think that you still want to try and find one that has a decent acoustic presence, as the ones that are really dead sounding sound the same plugged in. none have nearly the acoustic sound of solid tops, but who cares when they sound that good plugged in.

i have played a ES175 w/ a rare factory CC and i found it underwhelming. for the same reason a p90 makes the perfect match. its a dark sounding guitar and the CC is overall a pretty dark PU. they look really cool though. but, for me es175 gotta have the single neck p90.

that being said, Es300 can be had for a little less and sound amazing as well. they can pretty much do what a 175 does and still have a bit more acoustic presence. both great old guitars that you can get at a somewhat reasonable price. to me, es175 with PAF just dont have that same definition and they def dont work as well with a good tube amp IMHO. listen to any jim hall record from the early to late 50s and you hear it what im talking about.