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I think all comes down to what you mean by a "jazz tone". You can play jazz on a strat with the standard 3 single-coil plus whammy set up. You can tweak the volume and tone knobs on guitar and amp to get a reasonably mid-rangey tone that cuts through as well as an archtop or tele. But you can't quite make a strat sound like an archtop (the way you sort of can with a Tele, and you can't make a standard strat not sound like a strat. It will always retain a certain "quack" resonant peak along with a somehat scooped character and bell-like low end.
John
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08-26-2018 10:40 AM
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My experience is that with a blocked tremolo, heavy flatwounds and a full size humbucker in the bridge position, a Strat sounds just as good for jazz as any Tele. Does it sound like an archtop? No, but no solidbody does.
Originally Posted by John A.
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Strat neck pu does not sound like Tele neck pickup.
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The link below has the most convincing explanation of why Strats sound different than Tele's that I've seen.
Quick summary:
It's all about the pickup placement.
Tele neck pickups are 3mm closer to the neck than Strat neck pickups.
Both Tele and Strat bridge pickups have the same location but angles are different. Tele bridge pickup is such that it's bass end magnet is closer to the neck side and treble end magnet it's closer to the bridge. So, angled for the extremes. Warmer bass and more piercing trebles.
https://www.award-session.com/pdfs/W...s%20Differ.pdf
So you can get them sound the same. You just need to re-route the bodies to adjust the pickup placement.
For Jazzy Strat, one can just move the neck pick up a few mm's closer to the neck. There is certainly enough room between the neck and neck pickups in Strats.Last edited by Tal_175; 09-27-2018 at 10:12 PM.
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The difference in tone between Strat and Tele is more than pickup location and angle. The differences in pickup design, the Telecaster’s neck pickup cover & bridge plate (since it affects the magnetic fields), the Stratocaster’s tremolo block & springs, and to some extent the saddle materials also play a role. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Also see this on differences between the pickups:
Stratocaster Telecaster comparison - Ironstone Electric Guitar Pickups
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Yes, of course pick up design makes a difference. But I was referring to structural differences in the guitar design. You can put Tele pickups on a Strat very easily, it won't sound like a Tele. But it'll get some of the qualities. Originally Posted by KirkP
I'm not too convinced tremolo vs bridge plate is nearly as significant as pick ups and their locations. Hard tail Strats still sound like Strats. Everything affect tone but I do think it's plausible that pick up locations/angles (along with the right pickups) is what gets you into the characteristic territories of these instruments. I wonder if anybody tried this mod.Last edited by Tal_175; 09-27-2018 at 10:24 PM.
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I'm somewhat skeptical about 3mm making much of a difference in tone. 3mm on a 25.5 inch string isn't much.
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Yeah.
Stratocasters get good jazz tone on the neck pickup as is.
The key is a set of 11 or 12 gauge TI Swing flats.
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I have a Strat. I found the tone in the midrange was jazz-like. But, on the high e string above the tenth fret it starts getting thin.
So, I replaced the stock pu with a Lil 59 hb. Unlike the stock pu, it has adjustable pole pieces.
The tone certainly became darker, but it was still too thin in the upper register.
I might have tolerated that, but I couldn't adjust to the 9.5 radius.
Edit: After posting this, I happened to take another look at the guitar. I realized that the curvature of the bridge saddles was more convex than the fingerboard. And, although it was adjusted exactly to the Fender spec, I thought it felt too still.
So, I lowered the action. A lot. Eventually, the A and D strings starting fretting out after the 14th fret or so. So, I cranked them up a little. I made sure the bridge saddles were not too convex, as a group of 6.
Guitar feels better, and, somehow, the high E didn't do that sitar like sound you get when the treble is way up. At least not as much. That was a pleasant surprise, since I expected that lowering the action would make it worse.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 09-29-2018 at 06:20 AM.
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At one point I was exploring the jazz tone avenue with my Strat but I now like my Strat(s) to sound Strat-ty. I like playing other stuff on my Strat, but even when I play jazz on my Strat, I enjoy the sonic variety. It makes me play differently. I doubt one would be able to get true Blue note tones out of a Strat or any solid body for that matter, but with some mods Strats can be viable "practical" gigging option.
There is nothing wrong with customizing your tools for your personal needs and understanding why they do what they do. A lot of big name guitar players actually play modded instruments. They have their professional tech's to personalize their gear for them. Factory made, one size fits all designs exist due to realistic limitations of the business model, but can be improved upon and individualized. I see mods and similar explorations as a separate activity from playing. I practice 2-3 hours a day and have a full time job. Nevertheless, as I don't practice for 8-16 hours a day so I do have room for other activities occasionally especially on my holidays. Mods are fun.
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On my L6-S I didn't like flats, either. BUT, on my Stratocaster...it's a different story. You really get the SOCAL 50s vibe going on. The hot players there and then used medium gauge flats and the Stratocaster sounded huge and jazzy--still does.
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I can get a relatively decent "mellow" tone out of my Strat partscaster, but I have to use a very particular setting to get it. Passive tone controls are kinda hit or miss as to how well they work. I am going to rewire it with 12 position varitone switch along with a tone depth control pot. I am hoping that that will give me the sound I really want.
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Lots of ideas. For me, first, the amp. Fender Super Champ X2, clean tube channel, tone 5 bass 8.(into a custom 10" closed back cab). Fender strat with hot noiseless pickups. Neck pickup, tone rolled off to taste, for me that is around 1.5. Optional, a very, very light touch of reverb and delay (very short delay time)
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I play a Strat many times on jazz gigs--it's just so convenient. Big strings and a Polytone amp...just use the neck pickup and you have a nice jazz tone. Twisted Blues sounds like Wes--if you have the chops.
Think I will play my Strat tonight for my gig.
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a Strat can produce a fine jazz tone.
- set the action high enough that there is absolutely no string buzz on the frets
- lower the pickups as much as possible (without letting them fall into the body cavity under the pick guard)
- set your amp's tones to maximum midrange, minimum treble and bass
- set the amp volume higher than you need and control volume with picking firmness, not the guitar volume control
- no reverb, no compression, no effects
- adopt an acoustic attitude in your playing
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I love playing my Strat, but I want it to be a Strat, not an archtop. So no flatwounds, humbuckers, or heavy strings for me.
Mine is a hardtail, which definitely helps, but is not crucial. Strung with bog standard D'Addario XL 11-49, equipped with Lindy Fralin Vintage Hot single coils, and lightweight (4 lb) solid alder body. Body weight is important to put some life in the sound, as a heavy solidbody kills that. Tone knobs are set between 4-8, according to taste.
While the neck pickup is obviously the most classic jazz tone, I install a mini-toggle in all Strats to flip the bridge pickup on regardless of the switch setting. This gives you two more combinations, most important of which is the neck and bridge together - instant Telecaster. This is a brighter, but also very useful jazz tone, like a Gibson ES with both pickups engaged.
pauln makes an important point about the string height. The Fender "plink" is a steely high end that comes from slinky action and fret slap, which sounds great and appropriate when you're playing other types of music. For jazz, you want a cleaner sound, and raising the saddles will remove the plink from your tone. Saddle adjustment is REALLY sensitive. I have been known to tweak mine just a few degrees with the Allen wrench, barely enough to see them rise, and it makes an instantly palpable difference in tone and feel. I still like to be able to engage some fret slap if I play hard and funky, but for most of the dynamic range, it stays clean.
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It’s simple, put a Duncan Little ‘59 in the neck position. It’s a mini humbucker. It’s a drop in fit. It sounds fat , clean and warm. Just like my P90 Antiquity pickups in my hollow body.
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What's even simpler is not replacing the stock neck pickup.
There is a world of jazz guitar played with single coils (CC, P-90, DeArmond, etc.). The humbucker as we know it was not installed on Gibson guitars until 1957.
Anyway, there are a lot of good suggestions on this thread.
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All The flat wound strings, heavy picks, height adjustments, polytones in the world could never make my Squire Strat sound like a jazz tone. Those are minor tweeks. My neck pickup still sounded little, thin, dull and lacked clarity. You can't add clarity. I’m talking about an Indonesian Squire Strat from 2012. Once I dropped in the the Lil 59 and it was instantly fat, warm and with clarity jazz tone. Sounded like my P90s. Paid $70 for the 59 plus $20 for the install. My friend, a veteran NY professional jazz guitarist, had the same issue with Fenders best, his American Standard Deluxe Stratocaster for the wedding band gigs . He too put in a little 59 in to get a jazz tone and he put it in the bridge for thoise Les paul lead moments.... He’s the one that I learned about it from. He Also told me he could not get a good jazz tone from his strat no matter what he did until he changed the pickup. He left the Fender Deluxe middle pickup in place.
Last edited by rintincop; 09-30-2018 at 02:27 PM.
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I have a Strat with Fishman Fluence active pickups installed. It can get a remarkably good Jazz tone, probably because the controls are useful over their entire range due to their active nature. My favorite, however, are Anderson M-Series pickups in one of my other Strats. I really need to put a treble bleed circuit into it, but the M-Series are unequally wound coils in a mini humbucker format. They can quack like single coils in the mid positions, but the the neck position sounds beautifully warm and articulate for Jazz chording, without making the high E sound plinky.
The biggest factor, though, can be pick choice. All my guitars sound completely different with a simple pick swap. Strings, not so much. I use EB Cobalt with the Fluence and Infelds with The Andersons. I find I can dial the brightness out on both easily, but their very nature makes them articulate.
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The Squier "Duncan Designed" Asian neck pickup that I had to replace has a used value of $5. The Fender American Standard Deluxe (NM pickup) has a value of about $60 used as does the Duncan Lil '59... the expensive NM didn't get a jazz sound either ..
In conclusion, I personally could not get a good jazz sound out of my $5 Asian Squier neck pickup... the Lil '59 ($70) makes it sound like a P90 is in there, imo. It has clarity and gret mids and just enough bass, reminds me of my Duncan P90s a bit. It doesn't go "quack" or "plumpff".
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Yes! The pickup is the single biggest factor in the sound of the guitar. Any good mini bucker should do the job. Lil 59 is probably the most common. It is what Seymour Duncan recommends if you call them and they know a thing or two. Originally Posted by krusty
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I have a Lil 59. I first put it in an American Std Strat, but I missed the Strat sound.
I then transferred it to a Yamaha Pacifica 012. I like the way it sounds there. I can get close to a Strat sound with the middle pickup alone. It doesn't sound like Wes, but I've played it on a number of jazz gigs and nobody complains.
For that matter, I think a Strat tone can sound fine for jazz. I know a guy who plays an Eric Johnson model with stock pickups and sounds great. It's not anybody's idea of a classic jazz guitar sound (meaning, to me, not Wes or Kenny Burrell) but I still like it. His secret? Great lines, played cleanly.
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In reality, a lot of the big box Jazz I hear live has most all the bass rolled off, and sometimes mids rolled back as well. Otherwise, feedback is a real problem live, and chords go muddy. The resulting tone is remarkably similar to a Strat, imo. With the solid body, I can leave much more of the lower frequencies in.
I have found, though, that many of the SS amps that are popular actually make feedback more prevalent. The fundamental frequency tends to be a bit more pronounced, making resonance and feedback an issue. A regular tube amp with a master volume seems to work better for me. I turn up the preamp gain to the point where I am getting some more overtones, and set the master accordingly. If I am using an amp that is not intended for very high clean headroom, it works just fine. Digging in hard on chords produces a touch of grit. That's what I'm looking for.
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Chicken or egg? Do I prefer the strings I use just because I bought them, or because I bought a lot of strings and settled on these? Sometimes it's hard to say. Confirmation bias certainly exists, but it doesn't necessarily override everything, or anything, else. Certainly not anyone else's opinion, because everyone's opinion is valid, at least for themselves. It's a strange world out there.
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