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I hope some of you guys will help me. I cant seem to find anyone else who will. I am an old-school jazz lover. The standards. I play hollow body gibsons. I am looking for anyone who can recommed the best pickups for Wes Montgomery sound. I have already tried 57 classics. Can anyone recommend the warmest, darkest, pickups that sound great without special effects or distortion?
Please help me....you are my last chance.
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11-16-2010 06:36 AM
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what guitar model are you using?
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It is going on a custom-build from Jim Triggs that is a replication of a Gibson Brydland 2-1/4" thick hollow carved archtop. Thank you for your help here. I really need any feedback you can provide.
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The 57 Classics are a popular choice. Did you try rolling back the tone control with them? Most people are able to find a 'sweet spot' to suit their taste. I'm a big fan of Harmonic Design pickups (www.harmonicdesign.net); their Vintage Plus humbucker may be worth checking out, but if you thought the 57 classics were too bright I'm not so sure. Some makers (Lollar, Fralin, etc.) will do a custom version of one of their pickups based on your input; that may be the way to go. And of course, don't forget that Wes played with his thumb rather than a pick!
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Thanks Tom,
I too play with my thumb. I would like to move to a pick, but I lose something in the process. Best pick (and I've tried them all) I have found are rubber. Any input you can give me is helpful. I have considered speaking with Seymour Duncan about a custom wound pickup. I also like the sound of some P-90 recordings on utube. Any input there? Do you play jazz?
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Heh, heh - do I play jazz? Yeah, or at least I've been trying to for a very long time. I've never had a guitar with a P90 in it, though I would like to. My tonal preference is a little brighter than Wes' sound, and I do use a pick (red Dunlop Jazz III). Howard Roberts, Johnny Smith, George Benson, Attila Zoller all come to mind (not saying their tones are all the same though). Actually, to paraphrase a comment overused on the Telecaster forum: "Charlie Christian got it right the first time!" Maybe one of the current recreations of the CC-style pickup might be worth investigating! Good luck!
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Any idea of where I would start with that?
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Where in the world did you find that old "Tom Terriffic" icon. Man that takes me back. Any Idea where I might start with the CC's
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Jason Lollar makes a few - supposedly very good - CC designs. There are others, but someone else will have to chime in. Don't remember where I found it, but here it is in all its glory:
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Pete Biltoff of Vintage Vibe Guitars makes a "CC-Style" pickup. Someone has posted here that differences in construction make it less authentic than the Lollar pickup, but it's also considerably less expensive. Pete is very responsive and I believe he will do custom winds for a modest upcharge.
Other pickups you might consider are the Benedetto pickups, which are voiced for jazz. My Eastman came with a Kent Armstrong humbucker which I think has a nice, warm tone, but I honestly don't know what model it is.
Now, Bill Lawrence, the pickup designer, has said that what Montgomery used was a very low inductance P90. Check this out:
Wes Montgomery and Lawrence L-450/L-600 pickup - Telecaster Guitar Forum
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Should be able to get there with the '57 Classics. What's the amp?
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I like Duncan Seth Lover's in hollowbodies.
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The '57 Classic have AlNiCo V magnets I believe. For an even more authentic PAF vibe Seymour Duncan Seth Lover, or Antiquity Humbuckers, have AlNiCo II magnets, which are "softer" sounding.
For a bit more brightness a Gibson Burstbucker #1 is similiar, and the coils are not matched exactly wind for wind, so you get a bit of that single coil edge but still plenty of humbucking.
Finally, there are P-90 sounding pickups in square humbucker style which are made to fit standard humbucker mounting rings. Rio Grande makes one called a "Bastard" that I have experienced as being authentically vintage P-90 sounding. Gibsons version is the P-94. They're noisy but get that raw bluesy bite, but fat sounding. Burstbucker #1's in something like an L5 get bthe sound I've heard on lots of great jazz records by various people, including Wes.
Humbuckers are a bit of a love/hate thing with me. The usual kind (including Gibson '57 Classic -to my ears) loses some highs due to the humbucking effect. Then when you turn down the tone pot to get it fluffier for jazz the bass strings turn to mud. I love that they don't hum, but the sound can be very iffy depending on what room you're in with what amplifier.
I'm not sure Wes was ever really satisfied with his sound, I've heard. I thought it was great!
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The amp?.....you mean the amp(s)....Well I am using a Peavey Delta Blues with a JBL D-130 vintage speaker, a 1962 silvertone amp, as well as a Evans amp.
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How are they EQ'd Mickey? I feel like you have all the tools you need...I don't want to see you ending up chasing "tone dragons."
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The '57 Classic have AlNiCo V magnets I believe. For an even more authentic PAF vibe Seymour Duncan Seth Lover, or Antiquity Humbuckers, have AlNiCo II magnets, which are "softer" sounding.
For a bit more brightness a Gibson Burstbucker #1 is similiar, and the coils are not matched exactly wind for wind, so you get a bit of that single coil edge but still plenty of humbucking.
Finally, there are P-90 sounding pickups in square humbucker style which are made to fit standard humbucker mounting rings. Rio Grande makes one called a "Bastard" that I have experienced as being authentically vintage P-90 sounding. Gibsons version is the P-94. They're noisy but get that raw bluesy bite, but fat sounding. Burstbucker #1's in something like an L5 get bthe sound I've heard on lots of great jazz records by various people, including Wes.
Humbuckers are a bit of a love/hate thing with me. The usual kind (including Gibson '57 Classic -to my ears) loses some highs due to the humbucking effect. Then when you turn down the tone pot to get it fluffier for jazz the bass strings turn to mud. I love that they don't hum, but the sound can be very iffy depending on what room you're in with what amplifier.
I'm not sure Wes was ever really satisfied with his sound, I've heard. I thought it was great![/quote]
You really feel like the Seth Lovers are softer than the 57 classic?
Do You prefer the Rio Grand over the Gibson P-90?
I wonder what Wes was searching for...since he really had nobody else around to draw from.
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I finally have the "tools" I think I need. I have narrowed it down to a "Memory Man" analog pedal that gives great soft tone. I use a little chorus and echo as well as the tremolo on the silvertone amp. I am finially happy there after many effects pedal experiments and mistakes.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Feel pretty confident it is just a matter of matching body debth with pickup.
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well, now I'm truly confused--you say you're looking for a Wes Montgomery sound, then you say you're using chorus and echo?
Most chorus effects will add high end into your signal.
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All the great, standard choices are given here and I don't think any would fail you but you have to get used to anything and work with it and tweak it with the ret of your gear as well...
However, I'll just throw an extra into the mix as he's been a great help with me for the past few years.
Lindy Fralin makes all my pick-ups for me. Indeed, Lindy doesn't offer anything stock that your looking for, but he's a crazy pick-up wizard and really enjoys any challenge. My friend and fellow maker Joe Yanuziello got me in touch with him and raved about these custom set of electric mandolin family pick-ups Lindy has worked out with him over the past few years...nearly the entire family save for the MandoBass.
Having now gotten the chance to spend a couple years working with Lindy, he is indeed a total pick-up nerd. He likes to know what woods are being used on the instrument, the weight, desired sound...he'll make custom sizing...just a great option to maybe try if its something truly unique to the market that your looking for.
Best of luck,
TTD
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I took the Classic 57s off my 1998 Gibson L5 Studio CES. It now has two Vintage Vibe Guitars alnico II Humbuckers, Gibson 300K linear taper volume pots, RS Guitarworks 0.47 caps, CTS 500 k tone pots and Thomastik Infeld 014s. Very happy with the end result.
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fwiw, I used to own a 17" x 3" carved archtop with a maple neck, ebony board, 25" scale. That got a great Wes-type sound with a handmade Kent Armstring built-in humbucker. Originally Posted by Mickey
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Thank you very much. Sounds like a good thing to try. Again, thanks. Originally Posted by TheToneDoc
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Yes, Lindy Fralin once customized one of his pickup designs to fit a special application I had. He was great to work with.
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For all I know, Wes used standard boxes. On photos I have seen him with an ES 125 with a P90 (may have been borrowed from Barney Kessel for that session), an ES 175 (pickup hidden behind his arm but the sound on the record could indicate a P90), a L5 with an Alnico, a L5 with a floating D'Armond 1000, a blond L5 with two humbuckers, and finally the two custom built L5's with the single humbucker (which was standard L5's with a single pickup). He was quoted saying that he always used "a standard box", so if something happened to his instrument, he could always borrow somebody elses. Originally Posted by goshawk
On his two single pickup L5's the humbucker was turned around so the adjustable pole pieces were towards the bridge - for some reason or none at all. I tried doing the same many years ago with my 175, and it didn't change the sound significantly.
Early on he used wood bridge saddles (one can hear big octave intonation problems on "The incredible guitar of Wes Montgomery"). Later he used Tune-O-Matic saddles.
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Look forward to that Triggs. Jim and Ryan (Jims son) makes great guitars. I took delivery of this one recently: Originally Posted by Mickey
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...im-triggs.html
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