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Hi All,
I'm a jazz pianist fairly new to jazz guitar. I've just acquired my first jazz guitar, a D'Angelico EXL-1DP. Like many, I'd love to begin on an L5 but it's outside of my budget at the moment.
My question concerns amplification for jazz guitar.
I've read past threads on suggested amps for jazz guitar. No where do I hear the VOX Heritage AC15H1TV mentioned as a possibility. It's a tube based amp, only a 15 watter, which is more than enough for home practice sessions.
Reading the specs on this amp, it's 'hand wired', well built, and it utilizes tubes (EL84, 1 x EF86, 3 x ECC83/12AX7, 2 x EL84, and 1 x EZ81 rectifier) which are all common stellar performers in many if not most audiophile grade amps and preamps. The EL84 has a well established reputation particularly for its lush midrange presentation. Being an audiophile for 30 years I've been exposed to a lot of great sounding gear. In the audio community it's generally recognized that if it's got a tube in it it's more musical.
So my question is, if the VOX Heritage AC15H1TV is so well built, sounds clean and warm, using some of the finest tubes available anywhere, then why is there no mention of its use among jazz guitarists?
I've found not a single you tube video of this model being used with a jazz player, but I did find one being used with a Peerless Monarch guitar. The players style isn't jazz, but nonetheless the tone and performance of this small amp seems to shine through.
Is there anyone that can provide any feedback about this model Vox, or any other tube based amp below $1k that I should consider for jazz guitar?
I was leaning towards acquiring an Evans or Hendriks amp but after stumbling across a limited production version of the Vox I'm now considering it based on my experience with tube based amplification in the audio community.
Why is this amp only commonly used in the rock community?
Thanks for the assist.
Enjoy!
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10-12-2010 12:23 PM
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Hi,
Vox amps run in pure class A. Which means they are on full tilt all the time. For rock this can be great. The sound is compressed and punchy (think Beatles, Shadows, etc.) with great sustain. Problem is this is the last thing a jazz guitar player wants.
I love the sound of Vox but not for jazz. Find an amp (either solid state or tube) that has a clean and DYNAMIC sound.
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Its a pretty high gain amp, and won't give you a ton of clean headroom. To each his own, but for that money, I personally would be looking into a Fender Deluxe Reverb Reissue. Also an amp that will give you grit if you want it, but a LOT more clean head room. They can be had used for well under a grand.
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I found a few pictures of the Vox amp above that I'm curious about.
Thx!
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Two people told you to forget it. Any more?
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It's widely accepted in audiophile circles that Pure Class A amplification is far and away the finest design. Yes, it runs hot, but that's a nature of the design. Many of my best audio amps have been and are of Class A design. Class A provides the maximum sonic attributes to any audio playback. Other than generated heat how is Class A design a negative for jazz guitar?
Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman
it would seem to me whether one is listening to a 2 channel audio system or a single mono source guitar amp, in the end, one is still listening to sound waves, or as my first piano teacher so indicated, "shakin' some air." Class A design provides far superior sound to Class A/B. Even today, with Class D amps being so common, and cheap to build, nothing touches a decent Class A design. I can point to many a $20k Class A 2 channel amplifier in the audio world.
I'm interested in obtaining a clean, warm tone with depth. The overall design of this amp combined with the fact it provides a tube based approach suggests it has warmth and tone written all over it!
Has anyone actually tried one of these with a jazz guitar?
I'm trying to keep an open mind without having heard this amp played by a jazz guitarist, but my audio background experience suggests this amp could very well have warmth in spades.
The best of SS amps can't hold a candle to the warmth and clarity of any decent tube design. But I'm speaking in terms of the audiophile world.
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That's a $1000 ( or so) amp. There are better choices for that money like the Evans or Henrickson that you mention. (or the Fender as mentioned)
I don't think the volume is up on the guitar in the video you posted. It it was you might not like what you hear.
If you only need a low volume amp for the bedroom then there are cheaper alternatives
For normal gigging situations there are better alternatives
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You're comparing high end audio equipment to guitar amps. It's apples to oranges, whatever they call the circuitry. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
The problem is Distortion. Class A guitar amps, by their design, in a lower watt setting will push into overdrive quicker. This is what the other cats were talking about--headroom. Playing in your house it might be fine--in a live setting or any situation with some horns and a drummer, and you might find yourself running out of "clean." For rock players, this can be very desrable, mind you, but if you play a maj7#11 chord thru your neck pickup with distortion, you'll know why most jazz guitarists gravitate toward a clean tone.
The second part of your statement is false in terms of guitar amplifiers--which are very different than high end audio equipment, particularly in terms of clarity. A tube guitar amp is an inefficent, low fidelity design. That's not a knock--They also sound great, but for true clarity, High End solid state guitar amps are king--check out Acoustic Image, for example.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 10-12-2010 at 01:53 PM.
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Two people's opinion isn't exactly a consensus. Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman
With no desire to sound rude, I'd prefer hearing feedback from someone with actual hands on experience with the amp in question rather than speculation.
I'm not a fan of John Schofield's style but he apparently has played a Vox at one time or another.
There was nothing "punchy" and "compressed" about the sound in the youtube example I provided above. Sure, he's not playing jazz, but even so I'm hearing a clear warm tone being projected with nothing punchy or compressed about it. I'm hearing the sound of tubes.
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Last time I saw Sco, he had 2 AC 30's, and they were mic'd thru the house PA.
And he still played with a distorted tone much of the night. (although, that was likely the product of a stomp box)
Honestly, you sound like you've made your mind up that you want the amp. These cats aren't giving you BS here--it's a modern amp based on an old design and it's been agressively marketed to rock and roll players. If it's jazz you want to play, there are better alternatives.
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I'm not familiar with that particular Vox, but my general impression of similar wattage Voxes (Voxen?) is that they are chimey (too bright) and break up early, especially with humbuckers.
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Actually no, my mind is completely open. I'm a blank slate, for I'm a virgin when it comes to guitar amps other than a Roland JC120 used for a keyboard. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Where I'm not a virgin is in 30 years experience with audio gear, and Class A amplification design and tube design. Any SET (single ended tube) design circuit will run circles around the best solid state in terms of actual sound delivery to your ears. Most tubes excel in the area of acoustical instrument reproduction providing a natural and lifelike reproduction. So it stands to reason since we're speaking of amplifying an acoustic instrument without coloring its natural tone a tube amp would be high on the top of ones list.
What is it about guitar amps and solid state that makes them the preferred choice?
Any tubed alternative recommendations out there? I've read much about the Jazzkat, the Evans JE100, and the Hendriks. Rather than just jumping in and purchasing one of those I'm attempting to do my homework first by searching for a tubed based alternative below $1k. The Vox I've mentioned can be had for $500+ on the used market.
I've got a Rivera Pubster, a 25 watt tube guitar amp locally available to me via Craigs for $500. I know Rivera makes a Rivera Jazz Supreme 55 guitar amp that sounds good, but that's way above my budget at $1700. Price is an issue, for I've spent more for a starter guitar than I'd intended.
Thanks to all for the input.
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Okay, so you're suggesting the sound reproduction changes depending upon its use? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Well, I did emphasize that I'm only using it as an indoor practice amp. I'm not quite ready for prime time public performances on the guitar until I can transfer some of the theoretical knowledge I've gained at piano hopefully to the guitar. So in some ways I'm starting from scratch, but not exactly.The problem is Distortion. Class A guitar amps, by their design, in a lower watt setting will push into overdrive quicker. This is what the other cats were talking about--headroom. Playing in your house it might be fine--in a live setting or any situation with some horns and a drummer, and you might find yourself running out of "clean."
That's exactly what I'm after, a clean natural tone...but with a bit of warmth...that's why I'm naturally thinking a tube amp would be the best choice. Am I wrong in assuming the warmth of tubes in the audio world is also experienced in the guitar amp world?For rock players, this can be very desrable, mind you, but if you play a maj7#11 chord thru your neck pickup with distortion, you'll know why most jazz guitarists gravitate toward a clean tone.
Wowwwwwww, really! It's the exact opposite in the audio world. Solid state sound, particularly if it's not of fabulous design, can sound harsh, or "low fidelity" as you say by comparison.The second part of your statement is false in terms of guitar amplifiers--which are very different than high end audio equipment, particularly in terms of clarity. A tube guitar amp is an inefficent, low fidelity design. That's not a knock--They also sound great, but for true clarity, High End solid state guitar amps are king--check out Acoustic Image, for example.
So I'm finally getting some feedback that I can understand in terms that I can relate to. However I'm wondering if the distortion in a tube guitar amp is there by design? Distortion in the audio circles is always avoided...but only like the plague.
Thanks again to all!
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I'm not criticizing tube amps, but here are some of the reasons that a hypothetical jazz guitarist may state to justify why they use a SS amp:
* cheaper
* their clean headroom
* lighter
* lower maintenance, more dependable
* doesn't need to be cranked to reach a sweet spot
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
The best possible advise I can give you for this is to get out of your 'home' bringing the guitar that will mostly be played through the amp and demo them live in a store.
We have a saying at my job. "One good test is worth a thousand expert opinions"
That's the only way you'll find out if any amp is right for you
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10-12-2010, 03:37 PM #16Archie Guest
A friend of mine plays in a big jazz band (horns, keys, etc) with a Vox solid state amp and gets a good mellow jazzy sound out of it. I tend to think of the guitar sounds of the Beatles, Badfinger, Rory Gallagher and Brian May when I think of Vox tube amps, though. I like those sounds a lot, but they're not exactly traditional jazz sounds. If you like the sound of the amp, get it. You can always get a Roland Cube as well to get a more traditional sound.
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yes, that's what we're getting at! Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
A tube amp is a great choice for a warm clean sound, and if you never plan on leaving the house, 15 watts is more than enough. You might be able to do with less, and there might still be better choices than the Vox. I always am plagued by the "what-if's" though, and if you ever think you might play out of the house, that amp will likely be overmatched, as it is basically designed to offer "break-up" or, distortion, and non-ear splitting volumes. Those non-ear spliting volumes might be reached rather quickly in a live setting, and you'll be left with mush.
Guitar amps and high end audio equipment are VERY different. Guitar amps are the "knuckle-draggers" of the amplified world, if you will.
I'm of the opinion that 1k is a lot for a practice amp, especially one that won't be being used in the environment it performs best. I feel with that Vox, playing jazz might be like pounding in a nail with a wrench. Yeah, you can get it done, but it's hardly the best tool for the job.
If you can find one, a used Silverface Fender Princeton (or blackface, if you got a little more cash) is the best little secret in the jazz amp world. Unlike it's sister, the Princeton Reverb, the Princeton delivers warm, clean tone all the way up the dial. It's not a loud amp, but even with a humbucker it's essentially completely clean until it reaches "way too loud for the living room" volumes.
I'm sure other folks will chime in with other suggestions as well.
But since you're new to amps, a few things to always consider is who's lauding it (if it's rock cats, count on that amp getting to distortion quickly) and remember that in the modern market, distortion is favored by the majority of players--meaning that low watt amps might be wired to produce a lot quicker than a low watt tube guitar amp from the 40's--early 60's.
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I concur, but anything one hears in a store environment takes on the acoustical properties of the room it's being played in. That's equal to sampling audio gear in a store. Originally Posted by JohnW400
Not to speak of actually being able to hear the amp you're trying to sample above the metal and rock crowd that seem to dominate most any store I've ever visited. But I get the gest of what you're saying. I'm asking ?'s here to eliminate wasted drive time at a dealer, when odds are I'll buy it on the net anyhow...for obvious reasons. I've called several stores and none of them has a sales staff educated in jazz guitar amps. I've had many tell me there is no such thing...Rock rules the NW masses as it does every place else.
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What about here:
Results for Phil Jones Pure Sound:Guitar Combos
I don't know where they are in relation to to you but they are in Washington State.
or here
https://shoppingcart.djangobooks.com...s_pickups.html
I'll bet you could find a small store somewhere near you that doesn't cater to the Guitar Center crowd
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Thx for the assistance and recommendations.
Have you or anyone thoughts on the Bugera V22 or V55? I've just discovered them minutes ago and they're tubed based designs that sell new for less than $500.
Thx to all!
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Good evening, 2bornot2bop... Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
You may find some clues to you question in the following link...
vacuumtube.com/FAQ...
...where summary explanation of several basic features of valve technology is given. From your posts, it would seem that the audio field has little secret for you (that's good...), however translating into the instrument amp. sector means completing the picture somewhat.
The high-end audio performance comes not from the valve alone, but the complete circuit, including transformers, speakers, cabs (and, of course, finally, the auditorium...). One of the key measures for audio would be Third Harmonic Distortion (THD...); many valve designs have excellent low THD, but at the cost (in all senses...) of specific output transformers. Typical EL84 power would be around 5W (enormous at home, with hi-fi speakers...), and the speakers, with their crossovers and cabinet work, are highly technical in order to maintain the fidelity required. All of this costs a great deal (relative, of course...).
Musicians are not, typically, looking for THD as a choice factor in their gear. A 'clean' sound, in hi-fi terms, would not be considered 'musical' to a player; rather 'clinical' or cold (yes, even valve amps...). The test is simple: plug a guitar into a hi-fi amp, and listen. Not good, huh?
Guitar amps, specifically (as opposed to bass or keyboard amps...) are designed not to use the potential low THD of the valve, but rather the even or odd harmonic distortion inherent in the 'bottle'. The negative feedback sometimes used to lower the distortion lowers the power, and removes the very 'musical' sound required. The output trannies are made to a different spec. (although Hiwatt Partridges are particularly nice for hi-fi, they are rather the exception...), and the speakers, especially in combo cabinets, are no substitute for Quad or Leak speakers columns.
The end result (for guitar, still...) is that guitarists are not, when playing, listening to hi-fi. They (we..?) are listening to, not a reproduction, but a production of sound. What comes out of the speaker is the sound, warts an' all. More or less technically 'clean' (the 'clean' of a Fender Twin is not hi-fi...).
I use a Fender Bassman 50 valve amp, through 2x15 speakers. I like it at mid-volume, when it starts to break up. But for bass, I want to stay 'clean' even at large stage levels; for that I use a Hiwatt DR203, 200w of KT88 (another hi-fi classic...) into an Ampeg cab. This will break windows if abused, and still not 'distort', but at practice or room levels, it is very close to hifi. That's what I want in a bass; clean headroom.
I'm intrigued, just the same. For my 'jazz' sounds, I have found no better than my Roland JC-20 and JC-55 (no introduction needed...). Have you tried your guitar through your JC-120? It's not called a 'Jazz Chorus' for nothing, imho. If you find that too 'clinical', then don't look for a clinical valve amp, I would say, but...horses for courses..., you choose.
Hope this helps...
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Fender Super Champ XD :
(from the thread "Good Sounds" #69)
Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue :
(from the thread "Good Sounds" #91)
Fender Twin Reverb :
(from the thread "Good Sounds" #465)
Recomend the Fenders Tube Amps Sounds.
(Vox Sounds are difference, indistinct, smoking, may be good for Rock Musics)Last edited by kawa; 10-12-2010 at 10:11 PM.
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I made the recommendations that I did BECAUSE I have first hand knowledge. Whatever. Buy the AC15. Ignore the fawn AC30 I have (twice the wattage....and still not enough headroom for pipe smoker jazz)
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I agree about the Fender Deluxe Reverb reissue. About six hundred bucks, slightly used or so.
Nice headroom, great clean sound and when totally cranked, still a cleaner tone than any Vox, big or small.
Small, easy to carry, sounds good, won't die on you. Made by children in Mexico or something but what isn't?
The DANGER of practicing Jazz with a little tube compressor/splatter type amp like a Vox or Champ is that your playing style will be thrown off because of the compression, lack of dynamics and too much sustain. You'll get in bad practicing habits and when the day comes when you play for people with a big amp with headroom, your technique might suffer because you're not used to how you ACTUALLY sound with out the sustain on your little crapper.
Trust me on this, I've been there. Done it all.
Take your Vox and practice SMOKE ON THE WATER. Use the compression, sustain and clipping to its advantage. Avoid it when you practice your jazz because the sound will deceive you and throw off your playing style.
Scouts honor.
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Thanks Steve. The input you and others have provided have assisted me from making a bad choice by getting the Vox. Originally Posted by Steve Hoffman
I've decided to make a safe choice with something that I can easily move once I'm ready to upgrade...that is, after getting a lot more grips under my belt. I'm going with a Hendriksen Jazz Amp 112. I've got this thing about performing walking bass lines on piano. It's my desire to somehow integrate the passion for walking lines into a chord melody concept approach on guitar. Learning a new instrument I've got my work cut out for me, but I'm having fun.
I'd like to thank you and others for invaluable input to this guitar newbie.
Enjoy all!
Greg
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