15 inch or smaller 7-string archtop options

[nbs2005]

Hi all,

I picked up an Eastman AR810-7 a few months ago Gear Hunter | Eastman Archtop 7 String. I will admit to being a bit on the fence about the archtop tone and sound having played mostly flat tops for the past 8 years. But one thing I'm pretty certain of is that I don't really appreciate the size of this guitar. Looking to see what options are available for a smaller bodied archtop.

I'm aware that Eastman made some smaller guitars and offered them as 7 string models. Are there any other options in a non custom built guitar? I've read about nevershouldhavesoldit's adventures on trying to find a smaller bodied 7 and have heard Benedetto mentioned. Are there any others that I should be on the lookout for?

I'm also considering a Fibonacci Roma but that's at a moderately uncomfortable price point considering I'm still uncertain about the Archtop sound.

Finally, other than Jazz and Guitars in NY, are there other shops that specialize in jazz boxes and might have some 7 string options? I do often appreciate buying used from a dealer.

Thanks for your consideration.

Jeff

Hamilton ON, Canada

[Woody Sound]

They are out there, but you have to be diligent, thorough, and patient in your searching. But they are there.

Here's a very inexpensive one.

Raines 7-String Archtop Electric — Guitar Bar

[EllenGtrGrl]

If you don't mind getting it from the US, Guitras 'n Jazz has a couple of Lombardozzi's with a 15.5" lower bout. They are a bit pricey though.

2022 Lombardozzi 15 1/2? 7 Seven String Blonde Archtop Guitar Sale- save $1000 — Guitars 'n Jazz

I myself, am tempted by the used Eastman 7-string that Guitars 'n Jazz has.

[Cunamara]

Comparing the archtop tone to the flattop tone, my first question is are you talking about amplified tone versus acoustic tone? If amplified, are you comparing an archtop with a magnetic pickup to a flattop with a piezo pickup, which is very much apples and oranges.

Acoustically, a 15" archtop guitar is likely going to have a fairly small acoustic voice. If you are comparing with a dreadnought or OM/000 style flat top, the difference is going to be very stark. Indeed, it'll be a significant difference with a 16" or 17" archtop as well but the volume will be closer.

There's a couple of reasons for this, one of them being that the archtop guitar is pretty directional and does not provide as much signal to the guitarist's ears compared to a flattop. On the other hand, 10 feet away facing the guitar is a different story.

Another reason is how archtop guitars are generally voiced, which is to emphasize midrange and upper frequencies. These instruments were designed to cut through a big band or mandolin orchestra without amplification at the turn of the 20th century. For most archtop guitars, bass presence is smaller than with a flattop.

It will be an adjustment in technique and sonic expectations, and I would suggest giving it a few months to a year.

[nbs2005]

Comparing the archtop tone to the flattop tone, my first question is are you talking about amplified tone versus acoustic tone? If amplified, are you comparing an archtop with a magnetic pickup to a flattop with a piezo pickup, which is very much apples and oranges.

Acoustically, a 15" archtop guitar is likely going to have a fairly small acoustic voice. If you are comparing with a dreadnought or OM/000 style flat top, the difference is going to be very stark. Indeed, it'll be a significant difference with a 16" or 17" archtop as well but the volume will be closer.

There's a couple of reasons for this, one of them being that the archtop guitar is pretty directional and does not provide as much signal to the guitarist's ears compared to a flattop. On the other hand, 10 feet away facing the guitar is a different story.

Another reason is how archtop guitars are generally voiced, which is to emphasize midrange and upper frequencies. These instruments were designed to cut through a big band or mandolin orchestra without amplification at the turn of the 20th century. For most archtop guitars, bass presence is smaller than with a flattop.

It will be an adjustment in technique and sonic expectations, and I would suggest giving it a few months to a year.

I prefer the plugged in sound of the archtop with the floating pickup to my flattop with a Fishman system. Unplugged I usually prefer the flattop (inexpensive Ibanez Blackout 7). And the flattop works better at outdoor open mic’s that just use a single condenser mic.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If a Roma (a very nice guitar that retails new for about $8K USD) defines your price point of discomfort, you have a lot of room left for good luthier built 7s between $4K and $8K USD (used). But most will be 16" or larger. The Lombardozzi at GnJ (which is in northern New Jersey, not NY) is a fine model with which I'd be very happy - and it's well within your price range if I interpret your comment about the price of a Roma correctly. I haven't seen the one they have, but GnJ has been my default source of guitars, maintenance, repairs, and support for several years and I trust Lou and Marc completely. FWIW, I think they only have one. It's listed twice because they dropped the price $1k USD and whoever maintains their website appears to have added it at the lower price without removing it at the higher price.

The Raines that Woody linked for you is probably one of Matt's "fusion" series guitars. Any playable 7 string archtop for $600 is worth the cost, if it does what you want. But unless it's had a lot of TLC and been updated with decent hardware, pickup, setup, frets, tuners etc (which may be worth doing to a $600 guitar if it's otherwise excellent), it's probably not going to make you very happy. IIRC, they originally sold for about $2K USD, so the original owner may have thought it worth upgradiing. If the work was done, it's well worth a look - but I wouldn't buy it without knowing for sure exactly what you'd be getting. You're not close enough to it to readily inspect it yourself, and IMO a $600 guitar probably isn't worth flying in from Canada.

As I recall, those were 15" fully hollow archtops that he claimed were all solid wood with carved tops. I've only seen one in the flesh, and it was a 2 pickup version that did not impress me at all. I've known Matt Raines for over 25 years - I met him when he was assisting the jazz band director at my son's college when my son was their drummer. I bought one guitar from him about 6 years ago (a new 7 string Tele). The woodwork was excellent, as you'd expect from CNC fabrication. But the mechanicals and electrics were awful - shoddy nut and fret work, $15 builder grade Chinese humbuckers, cheap and shoddy bridge and tailpiece that rattled and broke strings, plastic ferrules that stretched out and broke off, etc. Be very careful about any Raines guitar. I put hundeds of USD into mine after buying it new - pickups, tuners, bridge / tailpiece, fretwork, nut, etc. I do not recommend buying directly from Matt, who usually has a few 7s posted in various places on the internet. Despite the fact that I've known him for so long, he totally ignored multiple requests for help and support when parts started breaking within weeks of buying the Tele 7.

I also have a 14" Eastman El Rey 7 that's truly fantastic. It's a fully hollow fully carved archtop with a huge amplified sound and a surprisingly nice acoustic tone, and it plays like a dream. They don't come along very often either. But a good one is well worth waiting for - and it will cost you about half the price of even a mediocre Baker or Foster 15.

Another choice is to buy a new $400 7 string Asian made archtop like the Iyv (not Ivy - Iyv !) from Vietnam and put some money into having a luthier upgrade it with decent hardware, electrics, and setup. It won't sound like much acoustically, but through an amp it'll sound surprisingly fine for straight ahead jazz.

There are fine 15" seven string archies from wonderful luthiers like Victor Baker and Jimmy Foster. They just don't come along much any more, but patience and vigilance will eventually pay off if you can wait. Your Eastman 810CE7 is a wonderful guitar (I have one). If you really like it and would be happy with a similar 16, the Jazz Elite 16-7 is a truly great guitar (I have one of those too). It's only about 2.5" thick, is a joy to play, and sounds fantastic (even acoustically). A few JE16-7s have been posted for sale over the last 2 years or so. Finding one and selling your 810 might be the best solution for you.

Good luck - I feel your pain!

[edit]

I prefer the plugged in sound of the archtop with the floating pickup to my flattop with a Fishman system. Unplugged I usually prefer the flattop (inexpensive Ibanez Blackout 7).

I suspect it’s the piezo “quack” that you don’t like in the flattop’s amplified tone. That’s a characteristic of every piezo system I’ve ever heard to some degree. You’ll get a much more natural amplified tone from any decent archtop with floater or set HB. Acoustically, the flattop will sound bigger and fuller than many archtops. My Ibanez AEL207E (probably the biggest bargain in history) sounds fantastic unplugged but has some of that quack through an amp.

[stringmann]

Check with forum member Chuck, thatrhythman guitars. Wonderful person to deal with + I believe has some 7 string options.

[nbs2005]

If a Roma (a very nice guitar that retails new for about $8K USD) defines your price point of discomfort, you have a lot of room left for good luthier built 7s between $4K and $8K USD (used). But most will be 16" or larger. The Lombardozzi at GnJ (which is in northern New Jersey, not NY) is a fine model with which I'd be very happy - and it's well within your price range if I interpret your comment about the price of a Roma correctly. I haven't seen the one they have, but GnJ has been my default source of guitars, maintenance, repairs, and support for several years and I trust Lou and Marc completely. FWIW, I think they only have one. It's listed twice because they dropped the price $1k USD and whoever maintains their website appears to have added it at the lower price without removing it at the higher price.

The Raines that Woody linked for you is probably one of Matt's "fusion" series guitars. Any playable 7 string archtop for $600 is worth the cost, if it does what you want. But unless it's had a lot of TLC and been updated with decent hardware, pickup, setup, frets, tuners etc (which may be worth doing to a $600 guitar if it's otherwise excellent), it's probably not going to make you very happy. IIRC, they originally sold for about $2K USD, so the original owner may have thought it worth upgradiing. If the work was done, it's well worth a look - but I wouldn't buy it without knowing for sure exactly what you'd be getting. You're not close enough to it to readily inspect it yourself, and IMO a $600 guitar probably isn't worth flying in from Canada.

As I recall, those were 15" fully hollow archtops that he claimed were all solid wood with carved tops. I've only seen one in the flesh, and it was a 2 pickup version that did not impress me at all. I've known Matt Raines for over 25 years - I met him when he was assisting the jazz band director at my son's college when my son was their drummer. I bought one guitar from him about 6 years ago (a new 7 string Tele). The woodwork was excellent, as you'd expect from CNC fabrication. But the mechanicals and electrics were awful - shoddy nut and fret work, $15 builder grade Chinese humbuckers, cheap and shoddy bridge and tailpiece that rattled and broke strings, plastic ferrules that stretched out and broke off, etc. Be very careful about any Raines guitar. I put hundeds of USD into mine after buying it new - pickups, tuners, bridge / tailpiece, fretwork, nut, etc. I do not recommend buying directly from Matt, who usually has a few 7s posted in various places on the internet. Despite the fact that I've known him for so long, he totally ignored multiple requests for help and support when parts started breaking within weeks of buying the Tele 7.

I also have a 14" Eastman El Rey 7 that's truly fantastic. It's a fully hollow fully carved archtop with a huge amplified sound and a surprisingly nice acoustic tone, and it plays like a dream. They don't come along very often either. But a good one is well worth waiting for - and it will cost you about half the price of even a mediocre Baker or Foster 15.

Another choice is to buy a new $400 7 string Asian made archtop like the Iyv (not Ivy - Iyv !) from Vietnam and put some money into having a luthier upgrade it with decent hardware, electrics, and setup. It won't sound like much acoustically, but through an amp it'll sound surprisingly fine for straight ahead jazz.

There are fine 15" seven string archies from wonderful luthiers like Victor Baker and Jimmy Foster. They just don't come along much any more, but patience and vigilance will eventually pay off if you can wait. Your Eastman 810CE7 is a wonderful guitar (I have one). If you really like it and would be happy with a similar 16, the Jazz Elite 16-7 is a truly great guitar (I have one of those too). It's only about 2.5" thick, is a joy to play, and sounds fantastic (even acoustically). A few JE16-7s have been posted for sale over the last 2 years or so. Finding one and selling your 810 might be the best solution for you.

Good luck - I feel your pain!

[edit]


I suspect it’s the piezo “quack” that you don’t like in the flattop’s amplified tone. That’s a characteristic of every piezo system I’ve ever heard to some degree. You’ll get a much more natural amplified tone from any decent archtop with floater or set HB. Acoustically, the flattop will sound bigger and fuller than many archtops. My Ibanez AEL207E (probably the biggest bargain in history) sounds fantastic unplugged but has some of that quack through an amp.

You are reading correctly my feelings on the pricing of the Roma; though if I was certain I'd love it, I'd probably pull the trigger after spending some time trying to find a more affordable option (once a cheapskate, always a cheapskate...). I am talking with Fibonacci about a Roma with a warm wood for back and sides. But also need to play some arches with warmer woods to see how they sound.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You are reading correctly my feelings on the pricing of the Roma; though if I was certain I'd love it, I'd probably pull the trigger after spending some time trying to find a more affordable option (once a cheapskate, always a cheapskate...). I am talking with Fibonacci about a Roma with a warm wood for back and sides. But also need to play some arches with warmer woods to see how they sound.

Most better archtops are sensitive to string type and gauge. My 810 with heavy TI flats (which is how I like it) sounds quite different both acoustically and amplified from its alter ego with phosphor bronze or 80/20 RW. My Ibanez AF207 even sounds significantly different with TI JS113s and GB114s.

If you’re commissioning a new build, discuss the tonal balance of wood, bracing, strings etc with the luthier. A mahogany body with a cedar top is a warm and sensitive combination that may need a little sparkle from brighter strings. A spruce top on a maple body probably won’t sound quite as thunky and mellow with flats as a cedar on maple. It helps to work with someone who’s made many 7s and understands how to give the 7th the same tonal character as the other wound strings (or how to make it more bass-like, if that’s your preference).

[SierraTango]

I would second Never's words of caution regarding the Raines. I bought a 7 from him and it was junk. The tailpiece broke almost immediately. I had Steve Holst make a new one, changed the pickup, however it was still so-so after the improvements. Like never, Matt was unresponsive to any phone or emails after the sale.
I owned a Ibanez AF 207 as well, it was a fine solid instrument. I commissioned a 16" 7 from Jim Mapson, who is no longer building, back in the 90's. It was about 2" deep and more than excellent in every way. I sold it back to Jim when I went back to 6 for exactly what I paid him for it. My understanding is that it ended up with John Abercrombie (RIP).
I know it's not what the OP is looking for, however it seems Chris Mirabella has or had a Benedetto Bucky 7 on consignment. I would bet coming thru him it is a gem!
The Marketplace for Musicians | Reverb.com

[Jthompson48]

There are fine 15" seven string archies from wonderful luthiers like Victor Baker and Jimmy Foster. They just don't come along much any more, but patience and vigilance will eventually pay off if you can wait. Your Eastman 810CE7 is a wonderful guitar (I have one). If you really like it and would be happy with a similar 16, the Jazz Elite 16-7 is a truly great guitar (I have one of those too). It's only about 2.5" thick, is a joy to play, and sounds fantastic (even acoustically). A few JE16-7s have been posted for sale over the last 2 years or so. Finding one and selling your 810 might be the best solution for you.

Guitars and Jazz has a 7 posted right now. Having just recently received a 17-6 from them, I can say that it feels smaller than my other 17s due to the width and it is a wonderful instrument.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I know it's not what the OP is looking for, however it seems Chris Mirabella has or had a Benedetto Bucky 7 on consignment. I would bet coming thru him it is a gem!
The Marketplace for Musicians | Reverb.com

Chris Mirabella is a very experienced 7 string builder who can discuss that guitar with you and guide you intelligently. When the El Rey was introduced 20+ years ago, Jeff Hale chose him to make custom tailpieces and bridges for new El Rey 7s, and Hale credited these with significant improvements in tone.

The Benedetto Bucky is a wonderful guitar that's similar to a Bravo. But IIRC the body is 3" thick and the Bravo is 2.5, which feels a lot slimmer than I expected a half inch to feel. So it's probably as deep as the 810 and may not feel sufficiently slim to solve the problem with the 810. But it's a wonderful guitar! [EDIT] I remembered where I'd seen that dimension spec. Benedetto has the Bob-built 2005 prototype of that model for sale in "Bob's Boutique", and it says the guitar is 16x3.

Having said that, a new Benedetto Bravo 7 is "only" $7000 USD and feels quite a bit slimmer than my 810. The neck is also slimmer, with a longer radius. My Bravo is so easy to play that I'm slowly losing my life long preference for fat necks (like the Eastman 7s have - they all have the same neck, AFAIK). Used Bravos come up a few times a year. An excellent natural finish one should be at least $3000 USD less expensive than that Bucky, even in Canada. It feels a bit bigger than my El Rey 7, but feels appreciably smaller than my 16" Ibanez AF207

[Jimmy blue note]

I am EXTREMELY exacting and picky about my guitars being a luthier and having always worked meticulously with luthiers to have anything built for me.
This is the present evolution of a guitar niche which began as a 7 string solid wood spruce/maple ideal of the GB10.
This one, X braced, with a Benedetto floater is my "Can't put it down" archtop which is my voice and mate to my hands for now.
This was built for me by Mr Wu from his highly respected shop outside of Beijing. Yunzhi would also build the equivalent guitar for maybe a thousand less.
I think it cost me somewhere around $1,200 shipped to my door.
I did the set up, and electronics (because I can), and carved the back of the neck to incorporate a slight flat where my thumb rides (I play classical finger style). The dynamic range is built for nuance although I can push it quite a bit using a flat pick. It projects a woody voice that accentuates moving lines with clarity that I can only describe as "Guitar Steinway", good balance from good bass support to single line clarity.
It doesn't have the throaty bass that I get from my Jimmy D'Aquisto 7 string, and I wouldn't expect that. So why would I have a 15" when I have a Jimmy D'Aquisto? COMFORT and classical guitar nuance and balance.
There's it for me in a nutshell. No need to wander any further.
If I were to tweak it any further in a new version, I might work with the longer scale of my Jimmy D, but for now, I'm in love.



PS If Mark Campellone EVER built a 7 string, mine would be the first order, even if I had to fund an entire run.