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So.. it's possible we have the 'cable as filter' view completely wrong. Maybe others knew this. I didn't.
According the ChatGPT, the direct filtering impact from the cable is so high, you won't hear it. Centered around 38Khz for a 20 foot medium capacitance cable.
What does change, again per ChatGPT, is the resonant frequency of your pickup. It shifts lower with more cable capacitance. How much and relative impact depends on the pickup. Humbuckers are impacted more than single coils. With longer, higher capacitance cables you're looking in the 3Khz to 6Khz range. Which matters.
Again the impact of a 10 foot cable is negligible. And using cables as a tone control does not strike me as a very good idea for either adjustment precision, adaptability to varying spaces, or repeatability. Shorter cables and a decent EQ pedals all round please.
Note: Specific question to ChatGPT was "What is the amount and frequency of roll off caused by a 20 foot medium capacitance guitar cable" followed by the same question for a 10ft cable.
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05-27-2026 03:27 PM
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Yes, it can be heard. A simple RC filter is a "first order" filter, which means that the slope of the drop off beyond its cutoff frequency is 6 dB per octave. When you "decrease" the tone pot, you decrease the amount of high frequency content in the signal by bleeding it off to ground. The frequency at which that starts is determined by the simple RC filter formed by the tone pot and the tone cap. The attentuation of the highs occurs at a rate of 6 dB per octave above the cutoff frequency, which is determined by the resistance of the tone pot in combination with the capacitance of the tone cap.
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
As you turn the tone pot "down" (which is actually increasing its resistance to the flow of the signal from the pickup directly to the output jack), it forces more and more of the signal through the tone cap. The changing resistance of the pot also shifts the cutoff frequency a bit. The main thing to understand is that only part of the signal is having highs stripped out of it when forced through the cap to ground by the tone pot. As you turn the tone pot down, a larger percentage of the signal is shunted through the cap. So less high frequency content gets to the output jack (and the amplifier) because it's being forced to ground. E1 is 329 Hz at concert pitch. So with the tone pot fully rolled off, the second harmonic of open E1 will be 6 dB quieter than it is with the tone pot fully "up" - and each successive harmonic will be down by an additional 6 dB per octave.
Because the cable interacts with the inductance, capacitance, and resistance of the pickup, they all work together as an RLC filter. An RLC filter is a "second order" filter, which means that it attenuates at 12 dB per octave. So adding capacitance with a cable will drop the second harmonic of open E1 by 12 dB - and it affects the entire signal. Remember that the tone pot is only sucking out some of the highs above its cutoff point until it's fully down - so it affects what you hear by varying the percent of the signal going to the amp after its been stripped of its highs. A cable's capacitance "processes" the entire signal. So it will have a greater effect on tone than the tone pot, at least during the first part of its rotation from high to low.
A typical tone pot is 0.022 uF, which is 22,000 pF. Even a cheap cable only has a capacitance of 150 pF per meter - far far lower than the tone cap. Because cable capacitance is so low compared to the tone cap, the tone control will have much more effect than a cable as it nears fully down. The cable will reduce harmonic content above the cutoff frequency by twice as much per octave as the guitar's tone control circuit. But as the tone control is turned down, it reduces the amount of high frequency that reaches the cable. So at some point, there's not much high frequency energy left in the signal and the cable will have little left to attenuate because most of the affected highs have already been bled through the tone cap.
Bottom line: a cable's capacitance will have the most influence on tone when the guitar's tone pot is fully up and the entire signal is going directly to the jack. In this situation, the added cable capacitance is cutting the signal by 12 dB per otave above the cutoff frequency. The more cable capacitance you add, the lower the frequency at which the cutoff begins - and the signal is dropping by 12 dB per octave above that point. So added cable capacitance cuts relatively more harmonic content that the 6 dB / octave tone control circuit in the guitar. Even though cable capacitance is so much lower than the tone cap's, it will have more effect on tone than the tone pot in its initial few degrees of "downward" rotation.
Remember that there are many ways to wire a guitar. Not all are subject to the above. There are also "no load" pots in which the last few degrees of rotation remove the resistive element from the circuit, letting the signal go from the pickup directly to the output jack. This removes the pot and associated components from the circuit entirely, making the cable's capacitance even more important to tone.
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Ok, but it raises another question. You may not hear the difference directly. But do the electronics in your amp? Is the amp processing signal that you cannot hear – and is that resulting in the overall signal being processed differently, such that (dependent upon the amp) the processed signal does have an audible difference?
As I mentioned earlier, I’m getting a slightly audible difference around frets 10-16 on the Wholetone (solid state) amp… but a clearly audible difference in presence in that range and higher on the Princeton Reverb 2 amp. That’s moving from a cheap 10 foot cable that’s about five years old to this new 12 foot cable.
It might be that the high frequency signal is driving different harmonic content in the tubes. Just a guess…
Originally Posted by Spook410
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If the center of the cutoff frequency for a 20ft cable, medium capacitance cable is 38khz and the impact to what you hear is actually the resonant frequency of the pickup (which won't change), don't think it works this way. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Not to argue of course since this is based on ChatGPT and not my own knowledge. I'm an engineer but my background is all digital and integration. Not analog. The calculations were shown by ChatGPT but I didn't check them. I'm guessing it's correct though since there should be enough information on the web for it to draw from.
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The change is at the guitar with the resonant frequency of the pickup. It shifts lower when it interacts with a cable but hardly any at all with a 12' cable. It's pretty far down on what matters to what you hear. Originally Posted by coyote-1
This signal is then translated at the amp. A Wholetone with a 15", an amp never designed for the acoustic goodness of a hand carved Eastman, will be naturally duller sounding (more lows, less highs.. actually less everything) than your Princeton. Quite possibly by a large margin.
As for a 10' vs 12' cable, I certainly could not hear the difference. But I will not assume and leave what others hear to their own ears.
The Eastman should sound pretty good through the Princeton. To dial it in start with guitar volume and tone set to 10 (so you're getting all of the guitar). Get it as close as you can using the amp EQ. If too bright, then back off the guitar volume a little. Because of how everything works that will knock off some treble. After that, try the tone at the guitar. Something I like to save for a last resort since it's kind of severe. Though some really like the sound of a rolled-off-to-death guitar. If none of this works to your ears, you might consider a different pick and/or different strings which are both pretty important. After that, it's time to get a proper EQ pedal and dial it in.
Of course this is all subjective and you might get very different views on the step by step given your gear and what you want to hear.
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I generally refer to audio cables of any kind as "fixed parametric equalizers." They all sound different and it's difficult to find a true neutral reference. The capacitance matter dominant in this thread is just one factor and sometimes not the most salient one. The "sound" of cables is also influenced by cable geometry (weave), composition of metals and their purity, gauges of component wire, cable inductance & resistance, and very much the choice(s) of dielectric materials. Connectors matter. Shielding matters. Compared to hifi, cable differences are somewhat more muted in guitar because the actionable bandwidth is so much narrower. In both realms, cable sound quality is only loosely correlated to price. Some of the worst offenders are the most expensive and complex in their construction. So, when you pick an instrument cable you are getting a "voice," which you can use to compensate something else that needs to be corrected or ameliorated, or you want to find the most neutral sounding cable you can, to preserve a sound you are satisfied with.
Guitar is emphatically not hifi. Everything is voiced by choices the instrument maker makes in design, construction, glue, woods and other materials. Nuts, saddles, pots, caps, resistors are all chosen for a reason. Pickups are intentionally voiced. Guitar-specific speakers are voiced. You may as well accept that your cable choices are too, and mate them accordingly.
I have an Analysis+ cable. It's pretty good but doesn't have the best "hand." 15 years ago I had Sean Casey at Zu Audio make me a few guitar cables, variants of the base composition of one of his audio interconnects lines. The best cable I have is still one of those.
PhilLast edited by 213Cobra; 05-27-2026 at 06:30 PM.
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No disrespect intended, but this stuff is not easy to undrstand or digest (even for AI, unless it's been trained on the relevant technical information). We're not talking about resonant frequencies at all. We're calculating the cutoff frequencies of various filters. AI (at least, the AI that powers most common web searches) appears not to know much about how guitars are wired. Originally Posted by Spook410
The cutoff frequency for a band-pass filter has no center - it's the point at which the filter begins to affect the signal content. A low pass filter drops signal content at frequencies above the cutoff at a rate detemined by the filter's design. First order filters start dropping the signal content at 6 dB per octave as it goes above the cutoff. Second order filters do so at a rate of 12 dB per octave. The sonic effect of the two is very different and affects the harmonic structure of the signal (and how it sounds).
AI seems not to understand that the pickup and its associated components form a filter network that affects tone and includes the inductance, capacitance, and resistance of the pickup itself. This is an RLC filter, not an RC filter. The tone cap and pot in most guitar wiring schema form a "side chain" filter that's composed solely of the resistance of the pot and the capacitance of the cap - it's an RC filter. It does not interact with the pickup in any significant way. But the cable affects the bigger system comprised of everything in and connected to the harness.
You can calculate the cutoff frequency of any capacitor - it's 1/2?RC. But the R in that equation is the resistance in series with the signal. That R is a complex summation of all the series resistance in the pickup, wiring harness, and associated components. The end result is not that complex. When asked the right question, Mr Google's AI sums it up fairly well, except tha the "resonant peak" it describes is not much of a peak. It's just a tiny hump (the "distinct" resonant peak to which the quote below refers) before the signal starts to drop. Here's what Mr G's AI says:
"The passive filter network formed by an electric guitar's pickup, controls, and cable does not have a single fixed cutoff frequency. Instead, it forms a second-order RLC low-pass filter that naturally rolls off high frequencies around 4 kHz to 6 kHz before experiencing a distinct resonant frequency peak. This frequency response is defined by three primary electrical components:
- The Pickup: Acts as an inductor (typically 2 to 8 Henries) and an internal resistance.
- The Controls: The 250k? or 500k? volume and tone potentiometers determine the load, which dampens the signal.
- The Cable: The cable's capacitance (usually between \(250 \text{ pF}\) and \(1000 \text{ pF}\)) acts in parallel with the pickup's inductance.
Together, these elements create a resonant peak that gives an electric guitar its characteristic bite (often between 2.5 kHz and 4 kHz for humbuckers, and 3.5 kHz to 5 kHz} for single coils. Above this resonant peak, the signal rolls off at a rate of 12 dB per octave."
The cable's capacitance just lowers the cutoff frequency.
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Thanks for this explanation Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Hmm.. even though my specialty was control center design and satellite comm, I do still have a degree in electrical engineering from somewhere in my misspent youth. Ahh the days of doing manual Smith charts, diff equations, and thermodynamics. Couldn't do it now. But I do, on occasion, still have a vague grasp of simple formulas. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
- Simple band pass equation is pretty straight forward. Using the ChatGPT's numbers, 20 ft and 10 ft cable show a corner freq of 38khz and 76khz respectively. If that's even close to correct, you won't hear it. Unless ChatGPT got their values wrong. Possible I suppose. They do state the baseline values and show the equations applied if you wish to check.
- Pickup resonance includes a dependence on load. If you plug in the numbers you can see the impact. Cable is part of that load. If the numbers are significant, it may matter. If not, it won't. I don't think a 10ft cable made of good components actually matters relative to other variables. If anyone cares to, plug in a specific pickup, pot values, tone cap value, cable capacitance per foot, and cable length and let ChatGPT spit out the actual numbers.
- The fact that we're talking about an AC vs DC doesn't seem to be discussed much. A reactive load matters in some situations but may not make enough difference for this discussion.
A quick search on cable capacitance and pickup resonance seems to be consistent with all this. Mostly sites related to pickups as opposed to places selling cables. And just a quick check. Didn't dig into it.
So. I think approaching the impact of long cables and high capacitance from a low pass filter standpoint is incorrect. I do think looking at the impact as an added load in calculating pickup resonance is correct.Last edited by Spook410; 05-27-2026 at 11:31 PM.
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Hmmm. Two very authoritative-seeming posters disagreeing! Low pass? Or resonant peak?
Is it possible both can be affected?
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You never get a simple first order filter with an electric guitar. You get a second order with resonant peaks. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
True for most pickup types. I don't know about active pickups which are a different beast.
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Originally Posted by coyote-1
The cable is certainly a low pass filter.. but if the corner freq is way up there, it doesn't matter. Go much above 5khz and you won't be hearing it from a combo amp. So if the cable is attenuating above 20khz, doesn't matter.
side note: I use amp modeling with fairly high freq reproduction rather than a combo amp. I actually roll off frequencies above 4.5Khz or so because, to my ears, makes an electric archtop (like an ES175) sound harsh rather than 'open' or 'sparkly'.
Finally, I'm wrong several times daily. You never know with amateur jazz guitar players.
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I have to return to this concept. Here’s why: with the old “analogue modeling” synths, there was an issue called aliasing. In that, frequencies above X would generate harmonic content that you could not hear… but the D/A converter did hear and attempt to process. Those frequencies were above its ability to process correctly, so it would make background noise that was not harmonically accurate. Originally Posted by Spook410
So then. Even though the speaker of the combo amp cannot reproduce frequencies above a certain point, perhaps the circuitry in some (perhaps most, depending on type) amps is processing it? And even if you don’t hear that directly, it is affecting what does come out of the speaker?
I find myself wondering whether this could be part of the ‘magic’ of tube amps. The extra harmonic content, something that aural exciters try to emulate…
I’ve now done the cable swap exercise on three different amps. The Princeton Reverb 2, The Wholetone, and a Katana. The difference in the Wholetone and the Katana is audible… but on the Princeton, especially with the midrange boost engaged, it’s significant. Not earth-shattering or anything, but enough to change the playing experience. I’ll have to try it on the Marshall combo later today.
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That goes directly to the point. The corner frequency of the cable itself as an isolated RC filter is that high. But the cable effect we hear is from its effect on the frequency response of the complex RLC system in the guitar (pickup, controls, tone cap, wiring). The cable becomes part of that system - it is not acting alone or in isolation. Its cutoff frequency as an isolated RC low pass filter is above the audible range of guitar output. But its effect on the pickup circuit into which it’s inserted is in the audible range. Originally Posted by Spook410
The pickup generates a signal in that circuit (which contains inductive, resistive, and capacitative elements). That circuit has a frequency response. The signal coming from the coil winding is altered (by the resonances and filtering effects of the entire circuit) into the signal that enters the first stage of amplification. The tone control circuit just bleeds highs out of the signal to ground. But the cable actually changes the way the entire circuit shapes tone.
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the amp’s input as a component of that system. It is. This is yet another factor, but the high input impedance (1 meg in most) minimizes current draw on the pickup and puts any effect on frequency far above the audible spectrum. It also isolates the guitar’s circuitry from the input stage of the amp, so that there’s no audible effect of the amp’s R / L / C components on the input signal. The classic example of how input impedance can affect tone is the "padded" 2nd input on Fender and similar tube amps. There's a resistor across it that reduces the input impedance to somewhere around 200 kOhms. This cuts the signal level by about 6 dB and filters out some highs for a slightly darker tone.
A 20’ cable has minuscule DC resistance (milliOhms to an Ohm in most decent cables) and will pass any amount of current at any voltage up to its rated maximum power capacity (when it becomes first a tiny toaster and then a fuse). The high input impedance (the 1 megOhm cited above) of most inputs on most amps effectively “decouples” the amp from the guitar’s pickup(s) and associated circuitry.
Low impedance (eg LP Recording) and active pickups work differently and are not subject to these cable effects.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 05-28-2026 at 10:01 AM. Reason: clarification added
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I probably worried about all this about 30 years ago.
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So, Coyote,
You like the WBC Cables, right?
They do what you expect as low capacitance cables, and,
They seem to be a good value relative to the others.
That's helpful to know.
I do appreciate the info from those here with a decent grasp of the logic on why these things might matter to me.
I really love playing my archtop guitars, and when I plug them in occasionally, I'll try to think about my capacitance in other ways.
It's made me look at my collection of cables suspiciously, to find out exactly what I have. I have some keyboard, synth, and sampler Monster Cable that I've repurposed for guitar that they claim is 30-45 pF . I'll give that a try and see if I notice compared to the Mogami 2524, or the new cable I got from Cables for Less a couple of years ago like the ones Bernstein uses. I think the 2 later ones are relatively high on the scale.
Thanks!Last edited by skykomishone; 05-28-2026 at 02:51 PM.
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I’ve got one, brand new, and yes it’s making a difference. For not a major chunk of $$.
Time will tell as to how it works in the future. But for now, yeah it’s worthwhile.
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FWIW, Mogami 2524 is a pretty high capacitance cable at 130 PF / meter. There are no Monster products on the list I linked in post #24. Originally Posted by skykomishone
I’ve never bothered to check detailed specs on cables because all I care about is the sound. When I was playing a 175 through a B15N, etc, there wasn’t any high end at all and I didn’t care because I thought the dark thumping was a good thing for solo playing. I just dialed it back for weddings and other sideman gigs. When I moved from the 175 to an L5CN in 1970, I bought a Tele and a Kustom 150 2x10 because the leader I worked for hated the 175/B15 sound for rock and pop. But in the 30+ years since I went to 7, I’ve come to realize what I missed in good tone.
When I started playing 7 strings, I also started listening to the whole guitar. Once I had clean, clear low notes, the rest of the guitar became more important and I realized that I’d been ignoring (or just tolerating) some pretty ordinary tone. But I've had George L cables for several years now, and I’ve learned how to get the tone I want from each guitar. Admittedly, I bought the cable and plugs initially so I could easily make any length cable I wanted. Their low capacitance was unknown to me at the time and pure serendipity.
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Besides capacitance, the shielding is very important in a cable, it will make a big difference in the noise artifacts it can pick up live, from amps, lights, appliances in the current, floor static etc. Also some materials get dirty and sticky fast, others not so much.
The only expensive cable i've ever bought is a vovox (was over 100 euros). Sounded great but it was the only cable i've ever had break on a gig. Had it repaired and still use it occasionally, mostly with acoustic guitar. I use george l, canare, mogami. Neutrik jacks are great, but being left handed sometimes i need tiny jacks hence George L.
The sound, like amps and guitars, gets better with higher quality gear most of the time, if one cares to listen closely. But for me, most 20-25 euro cables are good enough.
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I have two of the WBC cables, one low capacitance and one Canare, so slightly higher. I can't hear any difference, but I can say that they are very nice cables.
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This is consistent with my experience. I went down the cable rabbit hole a couple of times, most recently a few years ago. I had some help, so I could test with my ears rather than my eyes. I mostly play clean, with an archtop neck humbucker into an acoustic amp (Acoustic Image/Clarus) or black panel Fender. The upshot was that a moderately priced mass-produced cable sounded best to me. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Originally Posted by bluejaybill
One of the things I love about Canare is the way the cable handles while before and after a gig. I found it had just the right amount of rigidity to coil nicely with an appropriate minimum radius and when taken care of did not develop a memory from previous coiling. For several years I hosted an open mic, I was using 10 cables. (for instruments, microphones, active monitors). Ease of handling and reliability was a huge factor for me when choosing cables.
Any thoughts as to how the new WBC cables compare with Canare from a handling point of view?
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Do you know which Canare cable you're talking about? Originally Posted by DanielleOM
Most of my guitar cables are made from the Canare L-4E6S "Star Quad" cable that I had leftover after I used a spool to wire up all the microphone and line-level tielines in my recording studio decades ago. As guitar cables they A) sound fine (none are over 18'), and B) are overkill, but my one beef is that they have a bit too much memory. Keep hoping to find a cable with a more forgiving lay (lie?).
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This is my first time (in 50+ years of playing) to venture near the rabbit hole. Didn’t know I’d opened such a can of worms in so doing (nor that I’d deploy two old canards in two sentences)! Originally Posted by MarkL
I won’t go crazy with this. When an average cable costs $15, to spend a little more than twice that and get an audible increase in performance is worthwhile IMO. Don’t need to delve further.
Originally Posted by DanielleOM
This new cable initially had some coil memory from packing. I left it hanging from a rafter overnight, and that memory is gone.
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Originally Posted by Bob_Ross
All of the Canare cables I have came from Markertek. For instrument cable I have Canare GS-6. For XLR cables I have Canare L-4E6S star quad. I always liked getting these from Markertek as I could easily get them in the color and length that I wanted.
Your post prompted me to compare the two and I uncoiled the two cables. (Stored with alternating forward reserve loop when wrapped) I did not see any real difference in the way they lie on the floor. Generally they would say they both lie flat on the floor until you get a loop in the cable. Even a loop would lie flat on the floor until the diameter of the loop becomes too small.
I have one of the WBC cables here where they used Gotham cable. That cable is more flexible than the Canare. However, ability to lie flat seemed to be about the same. I had poor luck with the WBC Gotham instrument cable assembly as the right angle Amphenol connector failed.
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