Bigger Speaker for Quilter SBUS or get an Aviator Cub US?

[chris32895]

So I currently have a Quilter SBUS that I'm running into a Toob Metro 6.5GP (the older 25W version). My plan is to keep this setup as a portable "practice" amp as I do really love it, but am currently wanting something bigger alongside it with a similar voice so I can get a fuller and louder sound. I also don't want to spend a ton of money and would like this amp to be versatile enough for classic jazz all the way up to jazz fusion.

With all that in mind I see two options in front of me:

1. Buy a Quilter Aviator Cub US combo. This looks to me to be essentially the same thing as a SBUS with a built-in 12" speaker and upgraded to 50W instead of 25W. I really love the tweed and blackface voicings on my SBUS so getting that with a bigger speaker and higher wattage sounds nice. Not sure if 50W solid-state is enough for ensemble work with a drummer and of course since it's a combo you lose out on some modularity. I generally hear favorable things on these and they aren't super expensive.
2. Buy a 12" cabinet and speaker and run my current SBUS into that. I'd probably buy an Eminence Cannabis Rex and run my current SBUS into that. For a cabinet I'd probably get a Mojotone with an open back. Later on if I want a new head I can shop around for that. Upfront this is the cheapest option, but if I want another head later it will of course be more expensive. I like the idea of building the amp over time and making it mine.

Anyone with experience on either (or, ideally, both) that can chime in? I am also open to alternatives. I'd say my budget cap is $1k max, but ideally I'd like to keep this around $500-$700 and am open to buying used. Open-back cabs are a must for me at this point in time.

[SierraTango]

I can assure you that the 50 watt Cub will work wonderfully with a drummer and whatever else you throw at it.
I had a Cub and sold it to a Rock player friend of mine. I went to hear him and his (Loud!) band and it cut through like a knife. The other guitar player had a 50 Watt Marshall with a 4 12" cab and the Cub had no problem keeping up. He loves the Cub.
The reason I sold it-I think the Cub sounds better at higher volumes when you are pushing it a bit. I used mine for a while in my duo, however my Benedetto Cremona with a floater required a low level from the Cub to work out with no feedback.
Cub is a Awesome amp!

[chris32895]

I can assure you that the 50 watt Cub will work wonderfully with a drummer and whatever else you throw at it.
I had a Cub and sold it to a Rock player friend of mine. I went to hear him and his (Loud!) band and it cut through like a knife. The other guitar player had a 50 Watt Marshall with a 4 12" cab and the Cub had no problem keeping up. He loves the Cub.
The reason I sold it-I think the Cub sounds better at higher volumes when you are pushing it a bit. I used mine for a while in my duo, however my Benedetto Cremona with a floater required a low level from the Cub to work out with no feedback.
Cub is a Awesome amp!

Could you elaborate on what you are saying about the amp running better at high levels? While I do want the amp to be capable at higher volumes, I do also want it to be usable at lower practice levels. Did the amp not sound good at lower volume levels?

[SierraTango]

Could you elaborate on what you are saying about the amp running better at high levels? While I do want the amp to be capable at higher volumes, I do also want it to be usable at lower practice levels. Did the amp not sound good at lower volume levels?

No, it sounded fine at lower gain/volume. But like many amps in my experience, it really started to shine when pushed a little bit. I mean look at the target market-it's aimed across a wide variety of applications with it's Tweed, Blonde and Blackface options. I found the Tweed voice the best for my needs. Again, it certainly worked great at bedroom levels.
However look at my application. I gig with a Trumpet/Flugel player as a duo. No tracks or drum machine. Every amp I've used for the past 15 years (Mesa, Evans, etc) has been lined out to the PA, most recently a EV Evolve 30 (two years in). It's sit down cocktail music-our venue circuit requires patrons to have a conversation. After I sold the Cub I went with a Koch Jupiter Jr. 20W allows me to turn the amp up more to it's sweet spot without feedback from my Benedetto.
I think forum member John A has a Cub, maybe he'll chime in.

[Jim Soloway]

No, it sounded fine at lower gain/volume. But like many amps in my experience, it really started to shine when pushed a little bit. I mean look at the target market-it's aimed across a wide variety of applications with it's Tweed, Blonde and Blackface options. I found the Tweed voice the best for my needs. Again, it certainly worked great at bedroom levels.
However look at my application. I gig with a Trumpet/Flugel player as a duo. No tracks or drum machine. Every amp I've used for the past 15 years (Mesa, Evans, etc) has been lined out to the PA, most recently a EV Evolve 30 (two years in). It's sit down cocktail music-our venue circuit requires patrons to have a conversation. After I sold the Cub I went with a Koch Jupiter Jr. 20W allows me to turn the amp up more to it's sweet spot without feedback from my Benedetto.
I think forum member John A has a Cub, maybe he'll chime in.

I'd love to hear more about the Cub as well. It seems at least on paper. To be a great little amp.

[Sigmund451]

I think we discussed mine and I enjoy it with a 12 inch Rex speaker. 10 would probably be fine but I opted for a 12.

I do think almost any amp speaker combo sounds better when you give it a bit of juice. Im not so much convinced that its becuase anything changes with the signal on solid state. My guess is it has to do with activating the speaker enough to get a full sound. I can get a good sound at bedroom volumes but if I dont power it enough it can sound a little anemic My guess is it would be the case with any setup.

[MHeld]

I have a Cub and a ToneBlock 202/Block Dock 10, Henriksen Blu6. Along with a silverface Deluxe Reverb. I've also had a mountain of tube amps over the years (Marshall, Fender, Matchless, Vox, Dr Z, Swart, Boogie, Tungsten, etc)

I really like the Cub. The black sounds like a general Fender black/silver voiced Deluxe/Bassman amp, imo. It has more headroom than a Deluxe Reverb if you crank the master. It also can break up and sound like a cooking tube amp with the master lower and gain up. The Tweed and Blonde inputs are good. But the Black is really, really good, imo.

I like how consistently great it sounds no matter the volume...unlike a non master volume tube amp. It absolutely inhales effects pedals. And it weighs like 19lbs.

[Pivrich]

I have both a Mojotone pine cabinet with a 12 inch Cannabis Rex and an SBUS. It is a bit on the dark side, so may not give you the classic Fender “sparkle”. I prefer it with my ES175 more than with my American Archtop, which is built with the Benedetto DNA.

But that’s just me.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

So I currently have a Quilter SBUS that I'm running into a Toob Metro 6.5GP (the older 25W version). My plan is to keep this setup as a portable "practice" amp as I do really love it, but am currently wanting something bigger alongside it with a similar voice so I can get a fuller and louder sound.

I assume you know that the 50W from the Cub will only produce an added 3 dB (at most) into the same speaker into which a SBUS will push 25W. The Cub's speaker is probably a lot more efficient than the Jensen C6V (91.5 dB from 1V at 1 meter) in your original Metro GP. Assuming this is correct, there's potentially at least 9 dB to be gained from the added output power and likely efficiency of the speaker in the Cub. We don't know exactly what speaker is in the Cub and we don't know its sensitivity, because Quilter apparently doesn't want to release this info. The only thing we know about it for sure is that it's a "custom Eminence 12". Although a few are as inefficient as 90 dB, most 12" Eminence guitar speakers make at least 98 DB from 1V @ 1 meter. So it's likely that the speaker in the Cub is at least 6 dB more efficient than the one in a 1st generaton Toob Metro GP. If that's corrrect, a Cub will make about 9 dB more at its loudest and will have a similar amount more clean headroom. This is clearly audible.

Sierra Tango is describing the Cub as being loud in a rock band, which implies the likely use of significant distortion from effects pedal(s) and/or the amp itself. Even if that player is only using the distortion generated by the Cub itself, it's putting out more power than it would be with a clean signal. The power rating of an amp is specific to a given distortion level (e.g. "25W at 1 meter away from a 1V signal"). You can get at least a few Watts more (and often far more) from almost any amp at a higher distortion level than is present at its rated power. A serious distortion pedal can drive an amp to the limit of its power supply's ability to pump out amps while maintaining voltage. But for clean jazz tones with usable headroom, the Cub is louder than the SBUS through a 1st gen Metro GP - but not by a huge anount.

You have a few practical choices,assuming you want clean tone for jazz and smooth distortion with sustain for fusion. There are 6.5" speakers with much higher senstitivty than the one in your Toob. Pro audio and mobile audio suppliers offer literally dozens of excellent drivers with high power handling capacity and efficiency well above 100 dB from 1 V at 1 meter. You could swap one into your Toob and get 9 to 12 dB more output for maybe $150 at the most. Make that a 4 Ohm speaker and throw in a more powerful class D head like a TC BAM200 for another $130, and you have a much louder combo with far more clean headroom. The BAM has no effects, so you'd have to use pedals to get whatever you want. But it will be much louder and cleaner than the SBUS and will take whatever effects you throw at it without turning a hair. you annot get more power from a SBUS by going to a 4 Ohm speaker - it's designed for use with an 8 Ohm load and will not make more power into 4.

You could get a Cub and swap in a more efficient speaker if the one with which it comes and the extra 3 dB from the amp itself aren't enough additional output for you. You could buy a more efficient speaker cab for use with your SBUS, e.g. there are several outstanding Toob models that will do the job much more efficiently than your 1st gen Metro GP.

Beyond the above there are many excellent and powerful little amps out there at various price points. But the above is a good starting point. I've gigged with SBUS, Toobs from 6.5" to 12", TC BAM200, Quilter 202 heads, and many more. I dn't tnhink you can go wrong with any of these. Best of luck with your quest!

[John A.]

I think forum member John A has a Cub. Maybe he’ll chime in

I do have a Cub. I haven’t played a SBUS, so I can’t really compare it with that, though.

To the question of bedroom vs stage volume, I think the master volume implementation in the Cub is particularly well done. You really do all your tone shaping with the gain, limiter, and tone controls, and the MV just scales the loudness.

That said, I think all amps sound different at different volumes because of speaker response/distortion, feedback, and psycho acoustic effects. But, whereas with the tube amps I’ve had they needed to be above a certain output in order to get to the amp’s best timbre, that’s much less of a thing with the Cub, especially with clean tones. For a blues/rock sound, yeah, it sounds better loud just because loud in general sounds better for that. But for jazz it’s not really a factor.

[chris32895]

As a bit of an aside, can anyone comment on how these amps stack up against the Fender Tonemasters? Particularly interested in the Deluxe Reverb and Princeton ones.

[Stringswinger]

As a bit of an aside, can anyone comment on how these amps stack up against the Fender Tonemasters? Particularly interested in the Deluxe Reverb and Princeton ones.

I have the Quilter Mach 3 Combo and a friend has the Tonemaster Twin. In the Blackface setting (which is the only sound the Tonemaster gets), the Quilter sounds quite similar. The Tonemaster, with its 2X12 form factor pushes more air, but also weights 50% more. In addition to the Blackface sound, the Quilter gets 5 other amp sounds. The Quilter is also more expensive.

After comparing the two side by side, I am glad that I opted for the Quilter. HTH

[Sigmund451]

I dont have an answer to that but Im a big fan of systems that are amp heads/pedals. I recently made a longer sepeaker cable and moved the SB to the little table in front of where I practice. Its nice to be playing and just reach over to change volume or tone.

[chris32895]

I dont have an answer to that but Im a big fan of systems that are amp heads/pedals. I recently made a longer sepeaker cable and moved the SB to the little table in front of where I practice. Its nice to be playing and just reach over to change volume or tone.

I agree that this would be pretty cool. Plus, the added modularity of being able to swap speakers, heads, etc. is very appealing.

[Sigmund451]

Since you already have the Quilter it just makes sense to buy or build a full size cabinet for it. Save the extra bucks for something significantly different when it crosses your path. With a full size speaker you can get some beautiful tones from it.

[John A.]

As a bit of an aside, can anyone comment on how these amps stack up against the Fender Tonemasters? Particularly interested in the Deluxe Reverb and Princeton ones.

I tried an Aviator Cub and a Tonemaster DR side by side. I thought that the DR sound like a real DR, and I thought the Cub sounded close, but without quite the same shimmer in the high end, not necessarily a bad thing IMO because I often find DR's too bright unless they're cranked. If you read forum reviews you'll see that some people say the reverse and think a Cub sounds more like a real DR than the TMDR, so I guess this is a YMMV thing.

What tipped the scales for me in favor of the Cub were the additional sounds (I really like the tweed sound or the BF and tweed combined with an ABY switch), the MV, having a mid-range control, and the smaller footprint (a big deal for me because I generally play in tight spaces). At the time, I had a '78 Princeton Reverb, and when I bought my Cub I had both amps for a while. Similar to the TMDR comparison, the PR has a certain thing going on in the high end that the Cub does not quite have, but it has other features and greater flexibility, and it weighs 15 lbs less. I sold the Princeton. Tough decision, since that was up to that point my all time favorite amp, but I like the Cub a lot. I haven't tried a TMPR, so I can't speak that.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Since you already have the Quilter it just makes sense to buy or build a full size cabinet for it. Save the extra bucks for something significantly different when it crosses your path. With a full size speaker you can get some beautiful tones from it.

But I don't think any cab and speaker combination will make it very much louder, and that's the OP's stated goal. You can't gain more than a few dB from a more efficient speaker in a bigger cab, with a few exceptions for unusually efficient speakers (e.g. the Eminence Wizard 12 at 103 dB from 1 volt at 1 meter). If the OP likes the sound from his SBUS, the easiest way to make it louder and carry it on gigs is to use the XLR out to drive a good powered FRFR speaker like an Alto 10 or 12. That way, he has the Metro for low volume use and the active speaker when he needs more of the same.

A friend with whom I've played in a few bands had a TM for about 2 years. My Princeton with 12" speaker absolutely smoked it for sound quality and is louder. There have also been some reported reliability issues with TMs in general, although I don't know if they've been solved.

[Sigmund451]

I missed the louder part. I was more addressing the fullness issue.

[Gitterbug]

Chris, you may have missed my PM.

[Woody Sound]

I still think a used Q Mach II 12 is one of the best deals going.