Does a 7th string have to sound muddy? Solutions and sound samples...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

...to my ears the low A never quite bites enough sound to do my ear any good. To me the 7 strings players all have the same situation in the timbre of the low A never quite gets precise and clean.

Naturally this is just my take and we have a world full of 7 string players that prove my likes don't fit with anyone else. I have found this out with any 7-string player with one exception and that is Lenny Breau. All the great GVP, Ron Eschete, Bucky, and others while the finest players you can hear I still prefer all the playing they did on their 6 string guitar above the 7. Even Lenny I preferred when he played the 6 string, but he was doing things other 7 string players were not.

Enjoy the guitar it looks fabulous and sounds good even with that low A that my ear would like to hear come out more distinct. ?

I agree, Mark - many (if not most) 7 string players pay too little attention to their lowest string. The 7th can sound like the rest, only lower. But it takes a major shift in thinking and listening to do this. I was as guilty as anyone in thinking that a fat, boomy bass tone was a good thing for solo playing and for accompanying vocalists. I used bass amps for 40+ years when I played 6 strings, going for that flabby thump to which you (and now I) take excception. When I switched to 7s 32 years ago, I was suddenly overwhelmed by too much bass. At first, I thought it was cool, but it started to gnaw at me and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out why. On the advice of John Pearse himself, I started out using 80 thou RW 7ths for intonation. Since there weren't any readily available flats that heavy, it was the best I thought I could do.. So my base at the beginning was heavy Chromes over an 80 thou Pearse RW.

I think I've identified a few reasons for the flabby 7th, and there are ways to fix it. But those fixes affect overall tone and playing. The causes are simple to define:

1. The 7th string has to be fat enough to allow decent intonation on a guitar length scale. So it has a higher output than the rest of the set because it has so much more mass.
2. A heavy string doesn't produce a balanced spectrum of fundamental and overtones compared to the upper 6. The scale is too short for the pitch and the mass is too high (mass is a low pass filter in an oscillating system). So there's less upper harmonic energy reltiv to the fundamental pitch, which makes it sound duller in tone than the rest of the set.
3. Using a flatwound 7th string accentuates this disparity.
4. To many players getting a "good jazz tone" means more bass and less treble in the EQ for "thunk" or that "blanket over the amp" tone.
5. Those players trying to get a fat, mellow tone generally pick closer to the fingerboard than to the bridge, and this accentuates the fatness of the 7th string.

The fixes are pretty clear to me. Use the thinnest 7th that will allow good intonation on a given guitar. This changes from instrument to instrument. My EMG 7 (25.5" scale) intonates fine with a 65 Chrome, but my Ibanez AF207 (24.75" scale) needs a 75 and my LP7 (also 24.75") needs a 78 for close to perfect intonation. I used to use Chrome 80s on it, but they're no longer available so I use a 75.

Some luthiers have gone to longer scales for 7s and a few use fanned frets with compound scale length. Jim Soloway's 7s were long scale and sounded much more even from top to bottom than most 7s. My Eastman carved 7s with 25" scales do OK in this regard, but the 7th strings are not quite as airy and elegant as they'd sound if the scale were 27". The Bendetto Bravo is very well balanced top to bottom, but the lowest few notes are a bit darker than the rest of the strings even with everything set ideally.

The last tip I've found is to pick a bit back from the fingerboard. This does brighten the overall tone a bit. But that's not a bad thing for most good sounding guitars. Solo close to the board and drop back toward the bridge for comping.

The easy fix is to stop setting guitar and amp EQ for heavy bass. The fundamental notes from a low A string are generally strong enough to be heard well through a decent amp and speaker with the bass cut. Most of our bass controls affect the spectrum below about 150-200 Hz, so they boost the harmonics coming from the 7th string to much higher levels than the fundamental. This muddies the sound. It may take that much bass boost to make the other strings sound fat enough to the player. But it would take a parametric EQ circuit to thicken the mids and top without affecting the low bass. Even a muiltiband parametric equalizer doesn't completely eliminate this, and I find it not to be worth the bother.

The bottom line on getting decent balance across all 7 strings is to accept a more woody, acoustic tone and stay away from thunk. The bass and mid boosts that thicken up the tone of an ES 6 string are not good for the sound of a low A 7th.

For most performances, I run the bass on all of my amps pretty close to 0. On the Princeton, I run at 2 (about 7 o'clock). The EG250 and TB202 do well at about 9 o'clock. A standard E1 is only 82.4 Hz at concert pitch, while the low A on a 7 is 55 Hz. So boosting the bass to thicken the lowest range of a 6 string pumps up the 2nd harmonic of the low A and makes the boom. Cutting it does not remove the fundamental if the speaker can reproduce it cleanly. i think the sound in the test clips below is far better with bass down than with it even slightly above minimum.

I made these test tracks to hear for myself the simple effect of cutting the bass using the Bravo (currently with JS112 flats over a 75 Chrome) and two different speakers: my RE Bass 10 and Toob Metro BG+. The RE is driven by the Quilter ToneBlock 202 and the Metro by the BAM200. I played the first 8 takes in A and the swing comp with walking bass in C so I could include the lowest reaches of the 7th string. Please excuse the playing on Polkadots & Moonbeams - I've never played it in A before and I wasn't about to practice it just for this. I think it's clear that the 7th string is muddier with bass much above 0 than it is with bass cut almost all the way back. This is true for every comparison here. I did not play with EQ at all when I recorded the tracks for my NGD post about the Bravo - everything was flat. My bad!

Here's what it sounds like played with a pick through the BAM and Metro with the bass cut back:



Here's the same setup with the bass flat:



Here's the same tune through the ToneBlock & RE10 with bass all the way down:



And here it is through the same rig with the bass set at 11 o'clock:



Fingerstyle vs pick makes a diffrence too. Here it is FS through the TB/RE combo with bass off:



Here's the same setup and style with bass at 8 o/clock:



And here it is with the bass flat:



Finally, here are two examples of what I think is a pretty well balanced 7th. These are both through the BAM & Metro with bass cut back to 7 0/clock. First is a blues backing:



And here's a swing comp with walking bass:

[vintagelove]

A parametric EQ would do wonders. Dial in exactly what you want to carve out.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

A parametric EQ would do wonders. Dial in exactly what you want to carve out.

Like I said…

it would take a parametric EQ circuit to thicken the mids and top without affecting the low bass. Even a muiltiband parametric equalizer doesn't completely eliminate this, and I find it not to be worth the bother.

It’d have to be at least 3rd order (18dB/octave) above 82 Hz and below 55 but flat between them. AFAIK, there is no such animal

[nbs2005]

Thanks for posting this Never. It’s making me want to experiment with backing off the bass on my 7s. I run a 068 on my PRS and a 074 on my Eastman. I’ve been playing 7 for just over a year and while the thump is fun at first it can be a bit much. You’ve given me something to think about.

[deacon Mark]

Wow my take on this please be aware this is just me. Clearly it sounds better with the bass flat. When cut is sounds not nearly as good just not worth any 7 string. The best sound of all of these clips to me was the very last one with the Toob. Now that I said this it has zero to do with your playing or ability but to me, I would never find the effort of the 7 string to learn and use worth the trouble. The regular 6 string sounds great and more focused. In fact, when you play I just would rather hear the chords and the tune in the register of the regular guitar. The only exception for me is if the 7 string was moving constantly like a walking bass or simply more pronounced like a bass. To have a 7 string just to add the low A for things just does not cut it for myself and the reason I gave up on it after a few years.

[Jimmy blue note]

It's important for me to find the right amp and speaker set up. I have used Princetons with 10" speakers but when I use my Princeton II Reverb, it's got a 12" speaker and I have a hemp speaker in it. It stays clean and clear. I also wind up using a regular wound string with a gauge that's a little on the heavier side. It keeps the string taut and true; a string with a lighter gauge is easier to play but the intonation issues are exemplified with the 7th string.
A little while ago I build 2 equivalent guitars, one with the 24.75 scale I love and one with the 26.5 that my Jimmy D' is strung with. I couldn't believe how much difference it made. The 26.5 is louder, has a more decisive attack, has better sustain and intonation and the 7th string is much more in alignment with the other 6.
On a standard floating pickup like the Benedetto, the 7th is LOUD amplified, but I EQ in the signal path. Another miraculous balancing act is I use a D'Armond Rhythm Chief 1000 floater which is set up for a 6 string but JUST wide enough to cover the width of a 7 string if you want to deal with adjusting the position. I set it up so the magnetic field on the bass side is right on the edge of the magnetic field and voila, the bass string just balances with the other 6 strings. It's a headache of futzing to get it just right, but when it's right, it's fantastic! That SOUND!
I still use the 25" scale guitar, I can nuance and expressive tiny bending with that string length, but much of the time I'm using the 26" these days; it feels solid, clear and really even from all strings.

It should be noted that volume and response differs greatly from guitars with a solid top, laminated top, semi hollow and solid body guitars, floating or set pickups, so there's no hard and fast rule.

I still notice volume and sensitivity issues when I'm using the 7th string because it is outside of the optimum string length to tuning relationship but a heavier and longer string goes a long way to smoothing out many wonky issues.

[Jim Soloway]

I stopped playing 7 string a long time ago but it was my main instrument for a long time and I had the usual fight with the low A. One thing I found was a string from GHS that made a huge difference. I believe it was a Nickel Compound. I was turned on to it by some metal heads. It was remarkably stiff and allowed me to substantially reduce the gauge and still maintain sufficient tension. That in turn meant that my intonation was also better on the low A right down to the bottom of the neck. This is the only recording that have quick access to. It's on a 27" scale length so it's a bit of apples to oranges but I think it sounds great.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

This is the only recording that have quick access to. It's on a 27" scale length so it's a bit of apples to oranges but I think it sounds great.

Wow, Jim - is that your mellifluous voice?? It’s beautifully placed between Leon Redbone and Johnny Hartman!

Your 7s sound great, and they were so well designed and made that the long scale was easy to play. I got to play one at your booth at the Philly Guitar Show many years ago and loved it. I should have bought it, but I’d recently bought a new Ibanez AF207 and wasn’t able to stretch any further at the time.

[Jim Soloway]

Wow, Jim - is that your mellifluous voice?? It’s beautifully placed between Leon Redbone and Johnny Hartman!

Your 7s sound great, and they were so well designed and made that the long scale was easy to play. I got to play one at your booth at the Philly Guitar Show many years ago and loved it. I should have bought it, but I’d recently bought a new Ibanez AF207 and wasn’t able to stretch any further at the time.

That is indeed my voice 22 years ago. I sure don't sound like that now. Between age and 20 years of vocal inactivity, I don't have a lot of voice left. I was at the Philly show a few times but as I recall, the 7-strings that we had there were all my personal guitars. A couple of those with mahogany tops were just wonderful guitars.

(BTW, I'm pretty sure that that recording was done on a Tascam minidisk recorder. I never did learn how to do edits or overdubs on that thing which means that was all live to disk.)

[Cunamara]

I have that CD by Jim! It was good music. The cover photo of a guitar with a bass tuner for the 7th string is entertaining.

[Cunamara]

I stopped playing 7 string a long time ago but it was my main instrument for a long time and I had the usual fight with the low A. One thing I found was a string from GHS that made a huge difference. I believe it was a Nickel Compound. I was turned on to it by some metal heads. It was remarkably stiff and allowed me to substantially reduce the gauge and still maintain sufficient tension. That in turn meant that my intonation was also better on the low A right down to the bottom of the neck.

I remember reading an interview with George Van Eps (maybe the one by Ted Greene for Guitar Player Magazine?) where he mentioned having a specific multi-wound low A string. Might have been something similar.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I have that CD by Jim! It was good music. The cover photo of a guitar with a bass tuner for the 7th string is entertaining.

A larger 7th tuner is not a novelty, but it’s also not common on 7s. My Ibanez AF207 came with a bigger 7th tuner in 1997. The shaft is thicker and the string hole is bigger. I tried to buy a few spares, but Hoshino never responded to my inquiry and my dealer got nowhere with them.

Sperzel sells tuners that match its standard sizes but have larger shafts and a choice of hole sizes up to 0.085”. I had them on a few guitars.