Guitar loud enough to play with gypsy guitars

[SOLR]

So not gypsy jazz guitar, not electric , no amplification allowed and no money...Hummmmm

A Banjo?

Bonne chance dans tes recherches....

S

[mr. beaumont]

Even a cheap Cigano SelMac style is going to be louder than any flat top.

[olejason]

I play a lot of Gypsy jazz. If the other players are using good Selmer style guitars with proper right hand technique you aren't going to compete with them volume-wise using anything other than a resonator or a Selmer style guitar yourself. Going down the route of different archtops, Ovations, etc. will just be an exercise in frustration IMO. If you don't want to deal with the longer scale of an oval hole Selmer buy a D-hole and be done with it. Those cheap Gitanes can be loud as hell when you're driving the top.

There's a curious phenomenon in Gypsy jazz where you'll get guys at jams who are interested in playing the genre but will fight tooth and nail to avoid using the right guitars, right hand technique, etc. You'll hear them complain about the 10th fret dot, rest strokes, you name it. It is different, there's no way around it. But that's also what makes it fun, rewarding, and a different experience from playing swing, bop, or whatever.

[Stringswinger]

I play a lot of Gypsy jazz. If the other players are using good Selmer style guitars with proper right hand technique you aren't going to compete with them volume-wise using anything other than a resonator or a Selmer style guitar yourself. Going down the route of different archtops, Ovations, etc. will just be an exercise in frustration IMO. If you don't want to deal with the longer scale of an oval hole Selmer buy a D-hole and be done with it. Those cheap Gitanes can be loud as hell when you're driving the top.

There's a curious phenomenon in Gypsy jazz where you'll get guys at jams who are interested in playing the genre but will fight tooth and nail to avoid using the right guitars, right hand technique, etc. You'll hear them complain about the 10th fret dot, rest strokes, you name it. It is different, there's no way around it. But that's also what makes it fun, rewarding, and a different experience from playing swing, bop, or whatever.

I used to own a 1946 Epiphone Triumph that was loud enough to keep up at a GJ Djam (I have the proper right-hand technique, which is most important to be sure). But in general, a resonator or GJ guitar are the best choices for playing lead lines without the benefit of an amp.

I own two GJ guitars (long scale oval hole) for when I have a gig where no amplification is allowed. Both guitars have the 9th fret dot. Thank goodness! Going back and forth with guitars that have the dot in different places is a recipe for hitting clams. That said, if all I had were GJ guitars with 10th fret dots, it would not bother me in the least. It is all about what you are used to.

Choosing the right GJ guitar makes a difference. Gitanes, Alta Miras and Ciganos tend to be very strident in tone and may not sound good to a player who is used to the warmer tone of an archtop or flattop (I have owned 4 Gitanes and cannot say that I really liked any of them). My Dupont delivers the classic Selmer guitar sound with a more pleasing note but is still best suited to playing Gypsy jazz (which is the only thing I use that guitar for). My Shelly Park GJ guitar is more of a crossover guitar and IMO, is a good choice for an archtop player as it's warmer tone will be a more comfortable fit. I use that guitar for an acoustic jazz gig that leans more into Swing and Trad styles. It is good to have the right tool for the job.

Years ago, I was hired by a Bay Area GJ/Trad band to do a no amplification gig. I brought a Gitane oval hole (which was the loudest guitar that I have ever owned), and the bandleader was using a resonator. He had WAY more volume on tap than I did. I do not like the tone or weight of a resonator, so they are not for me, but for the OP, that could be a good choice.

[MMarc]

Thanks for your advices.

[Cavalier]

Now Imho doesn't mean you tried those alternatives.... If so what model etc ...

Technique is important, when in Rome or roma it never hurts to follow tradition. If you don't want to live there a guitar that covers more bases will get used more

[Jx30510]

I didn't know resonnator guitars would even be an option in that situation ? I don't much about them, but it feels odd to me playing these crazy speedy lines on a resonnator ? Aren't they suited for slide and bluesy finger picking?
That's make me want to go and try some.

[mr. beaumont]

I didn't know resonnator guitars would even be an option in that situation ? I don't much about them, but it feels odd to me playing these crazy speedy lines on a resonnator ? Aren't they suited for slide and bluesy finger picking?
That's make me want to go and try some.

Resonators are very loud. They've definitely been used in this setting, but they are some weird, heavy instruments...

[Dean_G]

For jazz resonator example try to find some Oscar Aleman recordings. He used a tricone resonator for much of his career.
A good choice for a loud budget gypsy guitar is a Saga Gitane 250M. It's bright and loud. It's got a maple back and sides and really cuts through. More versatile than you might expect. Another option might be an full depth Ovation.

[Christian Miller]

For jazz resonator example try to find some Oscar Aleman recordings. He used a tricone resonator for much of his career.
A good choice for a loud budget gypsy guitar is a Saga Gitane 250M. It's bright and loud. It's got a maple back and sides and really cuts through. More versatile than you might expect. Another option might be an full depth Ovation.

With the Gitanes you should try before you buy. If you get a good one they can be really punchy.

Not all of them are good.

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[Jx30510]

Thinking about it, I once saw the late Bob Brozeman in concert in the 90's .. that guy was a wizard with his resonnator guitars and could play really FAST and loud.

[garybaldy]

I use these. The one on the right is louder.

[D.G.]

Resonators are loud, but tend to have really chunky necks, a big hunk of metal over the bridge which can alter right hand technique, weird sustain, and high action. I have a Chinese Tricone cutaway that works well enough for me with some technique modification, but since I own a nice, loud ALD gypsy guitar I actually prefer to put a riser nut on the Tricone and use it as a lap steel

I’d recommend to the OP to just use a battery amp — like a Fishman Mini Charge — to give just a smidge of support in the acoustic situation. If you’re subtle with the amplification, it should work out better than trying to buy a rare loud vintage arch top or going the resonator route.

[Stringswinger]

Resonators are loud, but tend to have really chunky necks, a big hunk of metal over the bridge which can alter right hand technique, weird sustain, and high action. I have a Chinese Tricone cutaway that works well enough for me with some technique modification, but since I own a nice, loud ALD gypsy guitar I actually prefer to put a riser nut on the Tricone and use it as a lap steel

I’d recommend to the OP to just use a battery amp — like a Fishman Mini Charge — to give just a smidge of support in the acoustic situation. If you’re subtle with the amplification, it should work out better than trying to buy a rare loud vintage arch top or going the resonator route.

While this is all sound advice, there are some gigs where any amplification (battery or otherwise) is strictly prohibited.

[Dean_G]

Republic guitars has a mahogany bodied tricone resonator. I had one and regrettably sold it. It's like a national M1, but affordable, China made. Mine had great action and loud and woody sounding,

[L50EF15]

Another alternative to consider that’s not as crazy as it sounds: They use ladder bracing, like a SelMac; they have a similar upper midrange to treble tone profile; and they can be very powerful, depending on setup and technique.

Of all things, old Harmony or Stella branded Harmony flattops.

I have a few. As relevant here, I mean the OM sized (15.5” inches at the lower bout) long scale (25.5” inches) models like the H165 (solid Honduran mahogany top back and sides; Brazilian rosewood fretboard on a mahogany neck, BRW bridge, bone nut and saddle) and H1141 (solid birch top back and sides; ebonized maple fretboard over a poplar neck; floating bridge with trapeze tailpiece).

I recently got a Cigano GJ-10, so I have been able to get a good idea of how these compare to that affordable version of the real thing. And they are closer than their “cheap guitar” reputation would suggest. I do think the Cigano edges out the 165 and 1141. But again, not by as much as you might think. Played with appropriate technique, I think they can keep up.

More generally, ladder braced flattops (prewar Gibson made Kalamazoos, like the KGN-12 Oriole for example; or modern versions from Collings via Waterloo, like the WL-S) can get you in the right neighborhood sonically, and even onto the right street, if not the exact driveway.

Of course, there’s another often overlooked alternative: A good flamenco guitar WILL do the business in a GJ setting. One listen to Raphael Fays removes any doubt about that. In fact, I have been obsessing over a particular clip of him:

Don’t underestimate the power of a nylon string instrument. Even a “starter” flamenco guitar like a Yamaha CG-172SF has fantastic volume and cutting power. And if you need a cutaway, there are plenty of options, including the Cordoba GK Series.

Another nylon option, one with a similar scale length to a SelMac, at 26.44” inches, is the Martin 000C12-16E. I have the spruce over mahogany version but it’s now available with rosewood back and sides. But for GJ use, it’s probably better to stick with the mahogany version. It’s another one that approaches SelMac texture from an unexpected brand.

Good luck, OP. I am awaiting the return of my Cigano from a much needed setup. When I get it back, I’ll record some fresh comparisons with my other instruments. In the meantime, I’ll dig out some older recordings that may give you a better idea of what I mean. I actually recorded a couple of bits on the H165 a couple of hours ago, but I don’t know how illustrative they are.


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[D.G.]

I’d completely forgotten about the nylon option! I’ve done it and made it work with a Cordoba cutaway. Depending on who you’re playing with, it might be a viable option.

i still say a judicious bit of amplification might serve better though. Or you could always ask the other guitars to lighten up when you’re soloing. It’s only polite

[L50EF15]

Bumping this thread because a few nights ago, I played through the flattops I have that roughly approximate SelMacs in size and sound. I’ve linked the YouTube list here in case anyone is curious about some of the alternatives:

Middleweight Guitars: Martin and Harmony - YouTube

I think the Harmony Stella H1141 comes closest overall, and it is also closer in design: Ladder braced, floating bridge, trapeze tailpiece, albeit it has an uncompensated fretwire saddle.


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[KirkP]

Deep bowl Ovations are louder than jumbos, that parabolic back projects like a bandstand.

I bought a deep bowl Ovation new around 1970 and I still like it. But it tends to project the sound forward, so it can be a bit hard to hear yourself in a loud unamplified jam.

[olejason]

Regardless of the direction you go right hand technique is going to remain a huge part of the equation. If the other guys are using Selmer style guitars and playing with rest strokes and a floating wrist you simply aren't going to be heard if you aren't also using that sort of right hand technique. Gypsy jazz jams are pretty notorious for overzealous rhythm players getting too loud lol. As an aside, the bridge cover on a resonator generally doesn't impede playing that way at all.

To me it still seems like putting the time and effort into learning to play a Selmer style build will be the easiest and best option here.

Nylon strings can work when mic'd though and I really like how they sound. Rocky Gresset is a killer player who seems to usually play nylon strings nowadays.

[L50EF15]

That’s interesting re Rocky Greset moving to nylon string guitars. This feels like a trend, given Raphael Fays and Adrien Moignard are both known for using such instruments, Fays especially.

I have been extremely impressed by the volume and projection of my nylon string guitars. The word that comes to mind with some of them is “explosive”. That said, my GJ-10 definitely is louder, and I am not even using proper GJ technique. But the others, including the Harmony instruments, are closer than I expected.


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[Cavalier]

I bought a deep bowl Ovation new around 1970 and I still like it. But it tends to project the sound forward, so it can be a bit hard to hear yourself in a loud unamplified jam.

I've never had that problem, try tilting the guitar up a little. I also feel the vibrations through the back. For steel string I'm using a Folklore for finger style and a A braced Legend for picks.

[Christian Miller]

I'm surprised the Eastman AR805CE isn't loud enough. I have an AR880CE and while it's not as loud acoustically, it does pretty well against my friends Gipsy Jazz guitar. Sounds like that other guitar must be a cannon.

This suggests to me the OP should focus on rest stroke technique.

[Hep To The Jive]

This suggests to me the OP should focus on rest stroke technique.

That's true, without the proper technique even the loudest acoustic will not shine to its full potential.

[Christian Miller]

That's true, without the proper technique even the loudest acoustic will not shine to its full potential.

I played on a cheapo student model classical for years and it cut through acoustically at GJ jams because I worked hard on my right hand.


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