Pots & caps for single humbucker carved top?

[Woody Sound]

Is anyone using 250 pots for a single set humbucker in a carved top?

[sgosnell]

I'm sure someone is, but not me. They tend to attenuate treble more than I like. If there is too much treble, it's not that difficult to roll off the tone to taste, but if it's attenuated too soon, you can't get it back. What I use if I'm doing the installation on my own instrument is a single 500Kohm pot for volume, no tone. I can control the tone at the amp. I know that won't work for everyone, though. The use of 250Kohm pots is primarily for Strat-style single-coil pickups, to reduce the icepick sound. Commonly humbuckers use 500Kohm, or even 1Mohm. But 250K pots will work if that's the sound you want.

[Stringswinger]

A lot of stacked humbuckers for use on a Fender slab guitar are supposedly designed to use the 250K pots that a Fender slab guitar comes with. I am in the camp that believes all humbuckers sound best with 500K pots as do larger single coils (P-90 etc.). I would not use a 250K pot with any humbucker on any guitar myself.

[Rodney Gene]

Yes.

But there really is no stock answer as pot values should correlate to DC resistance and magnet type. And for archtops, mini-humbuckers often work best with 250k. Some humbuckers (the original JB amonsgt others) were designed for 250K pots and use 250, 300, 500 or 1M well. For 50 + years Gibson used (uses) 300K, primarily.

Anything with A5 magnet I generally use 300k. A2 I use 300K or 500k. I avoid 1M for my styles as I prefer lower wind pickups. I have a long history with pickups and guitar electronics, so I do have the luxury of alot of parts, pickups and ideas here to dial my guitars in quickly on a pickup by pickup basis, but 250K can work with the right humbucker and in some cases it is a recommended start. What is the pickup and archtop in question?

[Woody Sound]

Yes.

But there really is no stock answer as pot values should correlate to DC resistance and magnet type. And for archtops, mini-humbuckers often work best with 250k. Some humbuckers (the original JB amonsgt others) were designed for 250K pots and use 250, 300, 500 or 1M well. For 50 + years Gibson used (uses) 300K, primarily.

Anything with A5 magnet I generally use 300k. A2 I use 300K or 500k. I avoid 1M for my styles as I prefer lower wind pickups. I have a long history with pickups and guitar electronics, so I do have the luxury of alot of parts, pickups and ideas here to dial my guitars in quickly on a pickup by pickup basis, but 250K can work with the right humbucker and in some cases it is a recommended start. What is the pickup and archtop in question?

DiMarzio PAF 36th Anniversary (which I was told by Roger S is what's in his archtops). Guitar is an Eastman AR-803 carved top, mahogany body. I'm looking for a more acoustic-y full range sound, more flat or scooped. Contrary to many, I do NOT like a strong mid. Id like to be able to roll off the highs to mellow it out, but not to get midrangy honky, which is what I hear on a lot of guitars. I know, kind of vague on my part.

[Strat-itis]

If you like the full acoustic sound you actually want to go with a higher resistance volume pot as the less treble bleed off makes the sound clearer. So 500k as a base. If you wanted to get silly clear you could do 1 meg. But 500k would be the baseline.

I always recommend 250k no load tone pots because they work perfectly. But if you don't like no load you could just go with 500k for the tone.

For cap 22nf is a great starting point. Plenty of bass but not boomy, still stays creamy for jazz. If you don't like mids you wouldn't want to go lower than 22, you would want to go higher. So between 22 and 47. 33 might be good.

[Rodney Gene]

If you like the full acoustic sound you actually want to go with a higher resistance volume pot as the less treble bleed off makes the sound clearer. So 500k as a base. If you wanted to get silly clear you could do 1 meg. But 500k would be the baseline.

Except, magnetic pickups do not capture acoustic qualities, they capture string vibration from the ferrous material in the strings and generate an electrical signal. Even highly microphonic pickups don't amplify the top or body resonance. Some of the best Jazz tone ever are from solid body guitars. A higher pot value can allow more treble, but treble and clarity are never synonymous. Matching the pickup magnet type and DC to the pot value is always advisable on guitar by guitar, pickup by pickup basis. This is simply because you are working on the amplified sound and how it compliments the guitar. Many archtop builders use PAF-ish or mini-humbucker pickups by default simply due to the established relationship between them since '57. It's a wheel that needs little re-invention.

DiMarzio PAF 36th Anniversary (which I was told by Roger S is what's in his archtops). Guitar is an Eastman AR-803 carved top, mahogany body. I'm looking for a more acoustic-y full range sound, more flat or scooped. Contrary to many, I do NOT like a strong mid. Id like to be able to roll off the highs to mellow it out, but not to get midrangy honky, which is what I hear on a lot of guitars. I know, kind of vague on my part.

Nah, you were clear here. Understood. In this case, the DM 36th PAF is not scooped by any means. But it is not super aggressive either. The 500k is probably the best start with that pickup. Personally, If I wanted less mids I would choose a lower output pickup. Lollar Low Wind probably. But this is a great example of a great builder (Roger S) choosing the right pickup for his guitar build tonality, despite it being an overwound non- traditional PAF build.

[Rodney Gene]

Nice guitar BTW. I regularly browse the 805s!

[Woody Sound]

Guitar is an Eastman AR-803 carved top, mahogany body. I'm looking for a more acoustic-y full range sound, more flat or scooped.

I meant to type AR-603 (15"). I have an AR803-15 that I'll probably putting up for sale. Even though the 803 is the supposed "higher end" maple model, I prefer the sound of the lower price 603 with the mahogany body. JMO.

[Spook410]

I'm in the 500K camp. However, easy to experiment. These work well for easy to connect temporary hook ups.

Amazon.com

[Woody Sound]

I'm in the 500K camp. However, easy to experiment. These work well for easy to connect temporary hook ups.

Amazon.com

Hey those are very cool, thanks. I didn't know there are quick connectors like that. I just ordered some that are a bit different, maybe better for small guitar wires.

Amazon.com

[Spook410]

Those look handy. The inline layout works well. Ordered some to try out.

[omphalopsychos]

Lollar low wind for scoop definitely!

My favorite is the Ron Ellis LRP but they cost stupid money.

[GuyBoden]

Try no Pots.

Wire the Pup straight to the output.

Control the EQ with the amp.

Control the volume with your picking pressure.

If you can't control the volume with your picking pressure, try harder, or give up and get some pots.

[Spook410]

Try no Pots.

Wire the Pup straight to the output.

I thought about doing this. Then I thought about all the times I would forget to turn the volume down at the amp when powering up and the sound of feedback filling the air. Absent minded and easily distracted.. features that grace many guitarists. Not to mention electronics that offer a menu for volume control rather than a knob on an amp. So I put a volume control on the guitar that I usually (usually) turn down when finished playing.

[Woody Sound]

I thought about doing this. Then I thought about all the times I would forget to turn the volume down at the amp when powering up and the sound of feedback filling the air. Absent minded and easily distracted.. features that grace many guitarists. Not to mention electronics that offer a menu for volume control rather than a knob on an amp. So I put a volume control on the guitar that I usually (usually) turn down when finished playing.

Maybe a vol pedal.

[sgosnell]

I've tried using no controls on a guitar, and I found that a volume control was essential for me. Perhaps a volume pedal would be sufficient, but a control on the guitar is much cheaper, smaller, and easier, at least for me. I don't need a tone control, however, and on my main guitar there is none. I almost always keep the tone control full open on guitars that have one, and I don't miss it if it's not there. But killing the volume quickly is often necessary, and yanking out the cable is less than ideal.

[Strat-itis]

Except, magnetic pickups do not capture acoustic qualities, they capture string vibration from the ferrous material in the strings and generate an electrical signal. Even highly microphonic pickups don't amplify the top or body resonance.

This is false. The acoustic properties of the guitar impart some quality on the amplified sound. This is literally the reason hollow bodies are a thing. If hollow bodies didn't impart any acoustic quality on the amplified sound, they would sound identical to solid bodies. You can use the same pickups, wiring, and set up in an LP, 335, and even a 24.75 neck Strat and they will sound like the guitar, not the strings to pickup only.

A higher pot value can allow more treble, but treble and clarity are never synonymous.

Higher pot values by definition allow more treble. Clarity and treble aren't synonymous, but more of the acoustic detail will come through if more of the signal is expressed.

[GuyBoden]

I've tried using no controls on a guitar, and I found that a volume control was essential for me. Perhaps a volume pedal would be sufficient, but a control on the guitar is much cheaper, smaller, and easier, at least for me. I don't need a tone control, however, and on my main guitar there is none. I almost always keep the tone control full open on guitars that have one, and I don't miss it if it's not there. But killing the volume quickly is often necessary, and yanking out the cable is less than ideal.

At the present moment, I'm using no pots, but I have a Tuner pedal, which when activated cuts the signal to the amp, also the Tuner pedal is very good for tuning the guitar too.

[Rodney Gene]

This is false. The acoustic properties of the guitar impart some quality on the amplified sound. This is literally the reason hollow bodies are a thing. If hollow bodies didn't impart any acoustic quality on the amplified sound, they would sound identical to solid bodies. You can use the same pickups, wiring, and set up in an LP, 335, and even a 24.75 neck Strat and they will sound like the guitar, not the strings to pickup only.

Higher pot values by definition allow more treble. Clarity and treble aren't synonymous, but more of the acoustic detail will come through if more of the signal is expressed.

Well, perhaps there is a language or verbage issue here. Again, a magnetic pickup is not a microphone, it does not capture the body resonance or acoustic qualities of the guitar. It isn't personal, it's just physics, And respectfully it isn't my theory or opinion, it is well documented science along with historical and empirical evidence.

But I do understand what you meant, it just needed clarification and that's important. 'Imparting acoustic qualities', yeah sort of. A magnetic pickup picks up electromagnetic disturbances or the magnetic field pattern. That pattern and tonality is changed/created by the vibration of the guitar top, bridge material, string choice, string material etc. It is not picking up the 'acoustic resonance'. It does not hear the air like a mic. That is what I meant by 'relationship' between PAFS and archtops. Lower wind PAFS and basic archtops work/pair well. That is why it is a common pairing. A higher value pot bleeds less top end, but 'clarity' is not top end. It is the relationship between frequencies. It is not a gate or a threshold, it is a balance. This is why (as one small example) a simple string change to a different brand, core, wrap material etc can change the tone more than a pickup. It changes the magnetic field pattern and relationship between the parts.

Piezo pickups amplify 'physical' vibration. That is why Piezos and that entire tonal technology, preamps, designs etc are found with acoustic instruments and that industry.

As for why 'hollow-body' guitar exists, you just got to read a bit of history. Again,well documented and very interesting. The pickup was invented before solid body guitars were in production, with zero concern for acoustic tone. It wasn't even for the guitar, but for lap steel. As soon as solid body guitars were readily available and in many case publicly acceptable, players (even jazzers and western swing players) ditched the hollowbody for the electric. We like them now due to tradition, feel and tonality relationships between them and musical genres, history etc.. With a name like 'Strat-itis' you have many examples of 'hollow body' players who switched to the Strat in the 50's, including possible the first, Eldon Shamblin and his '54.

[vernon]

I sent my Heritage Eagle pickup assembly to Kent Armstrong in order to have him wind me one of his PAFs. In the process, he replaced the 250k ohm pots with 500k. Whether it was the pickup or the pots, I do not know, but there was greater acoustic tone coming through the amplifier.

[Strat-itis]

Well, perhaps there is a language or verbage issue here. Again, a magnetic pickup is not a microphone, it does not capture the body resonance or acoustic qualities of the guitar. It isn't personal, it's just physics, And respectfully it isn't my theory or opinion, it is well documented science along with historical and empirical evidence.

But I do understand what you meant, it just needed clarification and that's important. 'Imparting acoustic qualities', yeah sort of. A magnetic pickup picks up electromagnetic disturbances or the magnetic field pattern. That pattern and tonality is changed/created by the vibration of the guitar top, bridge material, string choice, string material etc. It is not picking up the 'acoustic resonance'. It does not hear the air like a mic. That is what I meant by 'relationship' between PAFS and archtops. Lower wind PAFS and basic archtops work/pair well. That is why it is a common pairing. A higher value pot bleeds less top end, but 'clarity' is not top end. It is the relationship between frequencies. It is not a gate or a threshold, it is a balance. This is why (as one small example) a simple string change to a different brand, core, wrap material etc can change the tone more than a pickup. It changes the magnetic field pattern and relationship between the parts.

Did I say magnetic pickups hear the air like a mic? I'm pretty sure I didn't. The physical properties (since acoustic doesn't work for you) of the guitar itself empirically influence the resultant amplified tone. This is why different guitar designs and materials sound characteristically different from each other. The only 2 explanations for this are the sympathetic resonance of the entire guitar system is expressed in the string vibration and the pickup reads this, or the pickup microphonically reads some of the sympathetic resonance directly from the guitar. It has to be at least one of the 2, take your pick. I think it's likely both.

[Rodney Gene]

I sent my Heritage Eagle pickup assembly to Kent Armstrong in order to have him wind me one of his PAFs. In the process, he replaced the 250k ohm pots with 500k. Whether it was the pickup or the pots, I do not know, but there was greater acoustic tone coming through the amplifier.

Great example of matching the pickup to the pot to bring the best out the pickups design and tonal qualities. That is essentially how the whole thread started. Kent knows the processes well.

[Rodney Gene]

Did I say magnetic pickups hear the air like a mic? I'm pretty sure I didn't. The physical properties (since acoustic doesn't work for you) of the guitar itself empirically influences the resultant amplified tone. This is why different guitar designs and materials sound characteristically different from each other. The only 2 explanations for this are the sympathetic resonance of the entire guitar system is expressed in the string vibration and the pickup reads this, or the pickup microphonically reads some of the sympathetic resonance directly from the guitar. It has to be at least one of the 2, take your pick. I think it's likely both.

Yes you did. And if you read my response it was a clarification to your sentence, no more or less.

And it's all good, no flame here. I am not going to argue semantics as it doesn't change anything.

All the best to you.

If you like the full acoustic sound you actually want to go with a higher resistance volume pot as the less treble bleed off makes the sound clearer. So 500k as a base. If you wanted to get silly clear you could do 1 meg.

[Woody Sound]

Interesting that the magnetic pickups that go in flattop soundholes sound very much FR acoustic-ish.