Buzzing issues. Bad Bridge?

[Grigoris]

Question to the luthiers:

I remotely bought an Epiphone Zephyr ES-165 copy during the summer, and when the guitar arrived I realized that the bridge was glued on to the soundboard.

I took it to my local luthier but he was unable/unwilling to unglue the bridge, I don't really understand why. I think he said that he just couldn't do it, it was too strongly glued on. The problem is that I get buzzing noises but his response was that "in an archtop, there's a million things that could be causing the buzz"
I chose to ignore the issue but everytime I pick the guitar I'm put off by the buzz. I would like to install a wooden bridge like the one I have on my other archtop but then I would have to find another jazz luthier and there aren't that many around in the part of France where I live.
Do you think it's advisable to remove a stubborn bridge that's cemented onto the board and would you care to take an informed guess of whether that would help remove the buzz??

Thank you in advance

[Zigracer]

Those TOM bridges can have lots of rattles. There are better versions of them, plus some things you can do to quiet them a bit. I would try using a fingerboard/bridge removal iron on just the base to see if the adhesive can be softened. Some folks use the clear double side tape to keep those type of bridges in position. It’s funny, though that the bridge will still often tend to creep by using the tape, but it’s still a real PITA to get the bridge base off the top of the guitar.

[Jimmy Mack]

Right away I notice that your Tune-O-Matic bridge (the top metal part) is on backwards! The small strings are sitting in slots that are too big for them. And the large strings in slots that are maybe too small.
Unless you are stringing it for left-handed playing??

You can get a new T-O-M bridge, or a wooden bridge to sit on the existing base. The metal TOM can produce buzzing and rattles. Get a new one, of good quality. I use a Faber from Germany. Much better!

Also, check the pickup for rattles. On my hollow body Epiphone, the inside of the pickup (the metal casing) was rubbing against the wooden guitar top. I had to enlarge the hole a bit, made a big difference.

Good luck in finding a solution.

[John A.]

Question to the luthiers:

I remotely bought an Epiphone Zephyr ES-165 copy during the summer, and when the guitar arrived I realized that the bridge was glued on to the soundboard.

I took it to my local luthier but he was unable/unwilling to unglue the bridge, I don't really understand why. I think he said that he just couldn't do it, it was too strongly glued on. The problem is that I get buzzing noises but his response was that "in an archtop, there's a million things that could be causing the buzz"
I chose to ignore the issue but everytime I pick the guitar I'm put off by the buzz. I would like to install a wooden bridge like the one I have on my other archtop but then I would have to find another jazz luthier and there aren't that many around in the part of France where I live.

You can replace just the (metal) tune-o-matic saddle with a wooden saddle without having to unglue the base from the top. It might be difficult to find just the saddle, and you might have to buy the complete bridge, but you can use just the saddle from a complete bridge. You just have to measure the distance between the two posts and find a replacement that has the same spacing.

Do you think it's advisable to remove a stubborn bridge that's cemented onto the board

If the glue is strong enough prevent you from being able to lift the bridge off without using a lot of force, it might be strong enough to tear off some of the finish, or even some of the underlying wood. It might not be a problem, but there's definitely some risk there. I'm guessing that if you can heat the bridge up a bit (e.g., with a soldering iron or some other source that doesn't heat the surrounding area and soften the finish), you might be able to soften the glue and get the bridge off more easily, but that takes the right tools and skills.

and would you care to take an informed guess of whether that would help remove the buzz??

It really depends on what's causing the buzz. A very strong possibility is that it's the metal wire that holds the bridge saddle pieces in place, or other hardware in the saddle assembly that's rattling. Those issues can be fixed or you can replace the metal saddle assembly, either of which could fix the buzz. But I doubt that the fact that the bridge is glued down has anything to do with the buzzing, or that ungluing it would help. Really, the best thing to do is try to figure out what's buzzing. The usual suspects are:

Bridge hardware
Pickguard bracket/screws
Pickup hardware
Input jack
Tailpiece
Wires inside the guitar
Anything else that has a nut, screw or other fastener anywhere on the guitar

It could also be something in the set-up or condition of the guitar, such as:
Loose truss rod rattling in the neck
Fret buzz due to relief or action issues or due to unlevel frets
Fret buzz between the nut and the point where you fret a note caused by a low nut slot
Crack in the guitar
Fret not properly seated.

It can be very difficult to figure out what's buzzing because there really are a lot of things that could cause it (any of which might depend on things like the frequency of the note being played). Your luthier would have to charge you for his time, and it could take hours, so I'm not entirely surprised at what he said.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd replace the saddle with wood. You should be able to find one with tune-o-matic spacing in the post holes...

I'd also just like to say that there is a special place in hell for whoever glued that bridge base down.

[garybaldy]

I've got some guitars with TOMs. Some of those guitars buzz and some don't.
I also have guitars with wooden saddles and some buzz and others don't.
Some of my 'high end' guitars buzz and some of my 'low end' guitars don't buzz.
Some buzz intermittently, others constantly.
It's very frustrating and very laborious to find out what's causing it!

[Zigracer]

I would definitely bring it to a competent repair person who is used to working with an iron. Heat the bridge base carefully and see if it softens whatever was used as an adhesive. I’ve had guitars in my shop that have used the double stick tape and it seemed the bridge was glued on, but some careful work got the bridge base off with no damage to the finish whatsoever. Also, it looks like you don’t have a great fit of the bridge base to the top, so being able to remove it would allow the base to be properly fitted.

[Rodney Gene]

There is quite a bit you can troubleshot with this picture and scenario and with due respect to the tech you brought this to, he could have managed this and I suspect it is pinned, not glued unless you can clearly see the glue which seems very odd. You can easily pry up a pinned bridge.

TOM bridges are excellent over all and excellent for Jazz, albiet not quite as soft in the attack, but certainly still very traditional.

The traditional TOM bridge with the retaining wire can be problematic if it gets loose, but that is often/quickly fixed with clear nail polish, or a simple replacement with a non-wire TOM.

As for just replacing it with a wooden bridge, you run the immediate risk of intonation issue, simply because you have no idea if the base is pinned/glued in the right place to be able to intonate a wooden bridge. Jimmy Mack mentioned the bridge being on backwoods, that need to be corrected first and can cause basic string buzz of the big sort (amongst other problems).

Rattles with single pickup instruments generally occur due to rattling pickup wires (against the top), loose pickup springs, loose screws/pickguard screws, pickguard etc...pretty fast to rule out.

**If by odd chance it actually is glued*** John As suggestion to loosen the bridge with heat, is a good one. A simple light tap with a small piece of wood/rubber mallet may do it as well.
But if it were my guitar and the guitar intonates with a TOM bridge now, I wold replace it and leave the base as is. If not, I would be certain to remove it/ loosen it so I could properly setup the guitar.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If there's double sided tape under the bridge, the easiest way I've found to break the bond is with fine waxed dental floss. Secure the guitar well on a work surface or in the case with the case secured against movement. If you do it in the case, use tape or a bungee cord to seure the top open, so it doesn't land on your arms while you're working.

Wrap the ends of 18" to 24" around both little fingers (or ring or middle, as you prefer), leaving 4 to 6" free between your index fingers and thumbs. Gently slip the floss back and forth between the bridge base and the top. Do not try to get hrough the full length of the bridge - go from end to end. If there's 2 sided tape in there, the floss will slowly (verrrry slowly - take your time) sink into the gap as it works its way through the adhesive or the tape (depending on what kind of tape was used - I don't think there's foam tape in there because the gap is too narrow). The floss may break as it rubs against the edge of the bridge base and gets abraded. Just be patient and start where you left off using a fresh piece. Slightly warming the area with a proper tool or a hair dryer will soften and loosen the adhesive a bit.

If it's glued with hide glue, heat (properly applied) should make it easily removable. But unless you're skilled at this sort of work, I'd have a luthier check it out and do the right thing. It's no big deal if the finish under the bridge is cosmetically damaged, unless it's in the wrong place for intonation and needs to be shifted. Then the problem area will be visible. If it's held on with CA (a capital crime, IMO), the finish may well come off with the bridge. The best way to approach that might be to cut through the bridge base with a Horico or similar disc just above the top and gently take down the remaining base wood by hand. How to best remove the adhesive residue depends on the finish.

The hardest part may well be getting a smooth top surface again so that the bridge base can be properly mated to it.

[wintermoon]

If the intonation is good I'd probably leave the base glued on.
The base is probably not what's rattling and if you remove it you'll have to remove/scrape the glue residue off the top of the guitar and the base if you decide to reuse it.
It could get cosmetically ugly at that point unless you're careful and know what you're doing.

[Grigoris]

Thanks for your comments.
yes the bridge is back to front but I put it back in place and the intonation is fine.
So, if the intonation is fine but the base is glued on, does that mean replace the TOM bridge with another better quality TOM bridge and forget about the wooden bridge?

[SOLR]

Thanks for your comments.
yes the bridge is back to front but I put it back in place and the intonation is fine.
So, if the intonation is fine but the base is glued on, does that mean replace the TOM bridge with another better quality TOM bridge and forget about the wooden bridge?

Yes!

but, have a look here before going too far Help me find Rattle on archtop. and report back.

S

[DawgBone]

High likelihood that TOM is making all the noise. I had two different gotoh TOM's do that to me. What was worse is I was in the middle of recording and was also chasing buzzes out of two different amps at the same time. Total nightmare.

I disassembled them and silicone taped all the screws and then used a few drops of clear nail polish on the wire and it quieted down but with enough play time the buzzing came back on my main axe. A new tonepros bridge cured the problem permanently. If you have the cash for a new bridge that's your best bet otherwise it's a band-aid meant to tide you over until your gig $ can cover the cost....

[Jimmy Mack]

A wooden bridge will limit your ability to intonate the strings - if the base is in fact glued down. A wooden bridge requires a base that will move in order to intonate properly. The benefit of a T-O-M bridge is the adjustable saddles. But those same saddles can be a source of rattles! Get a good solid bridge, preferably one without the retaining wire.

[SOLR]

I'd go with a Faber
ABR Bridges

KMS is also a great choice but way more $$$ compared to the price of your guitar might not be the wiser choice ...403 Forbidden

Note, they're both pre grooved if need be, but ,with a Faber, you'll need to get a luthier (or yourself) to adjust the grooves to your strings gauge .On the KMS, if ordering a pre grooved "One V" you're all set as it fits most string gauges up to .056 I think, and, No retaining spring bar on either

S

[wintermoon]

If you ruled everything else out check for a loose brace.
Sometimes one is just loose enough to cause a vibration/buzzing sound.

[Sleeko]

I had an annoying one on my Emperor Regent that ended up being a wire casing under the pickguard. I could hear it quite loudly and noticed it vibrating up and down the wire. A little 5 minute jeweler's epoxy applied solved the problem.

[Grigoris]

I think it must be the pickup rubbing against the plastic frame. I saw in a previous post someone had inserted a sax reed between the pickup and the frame but it looks ugly and I don't really know if there is enough space for the reed to get in there. I tried last night with a pick, but it needed something much thinner...

[Rodney Gene]

I think it must be the pickup rubbing against the plastic frame. I saw in a previous post someone had inserted a sax reed between the pickup and the frame but it looks ugly and I don't really know if there is enough space for the reed to get in there. I tried last night with a pick, but it needed something much thinner...

Yeah, that is a first pass troubleshoot and a super common rattle. Good job. If you have the confidence, you can remove the pickup from the ring and replace the spring with rubber tubing in a case like this with so little spring needed. It will eliminate the rattle as it keeps the pickup from moving in the ring. As high as that pickup is mounted in the photo, I would not be surprised if someone had removed the springs altogether to get it to fit, allowing the pickup to rattle about. Particularly if it was the same person who glued the bridge.

[John A.]

I think it must be the pickup rubbing against the plastic frame. I saw in a previous post someone had inserted a sax reed between the pickup and the frame but it looks ugly and I don't really know if there is enough space for the reed to get in there. I tried last night with a pick, but it needed something much thinner...

I had that issue on a guitar (that I no longer have), and I solved it by stuffing a foam ear plug in the gap between the ring and pickup. On one of my current guitars, I get rattling between the pickguard and mounting bracket, and I use a bit of ear plug as a washer/damper for that.

[deacon Mark]

If it was my guitar the bridge would get unglued from the top and I would put on a rosewood saddle. Nothing worse to me than a pinned bridge as not needed and only can cause problems. Floating as it should allow maximum adjustability and much easier. Nothing worse than not having the ability to tap the side of the whole bridge to center it to the fingerboard. Heat the bridge a little with soldering iron very slow and carefully it will come up with patience. Work something underneath that is thin and flat and will not scratch the finish, someone mentioned dental floss that might work fine.

[Gitterbug]

Your guitar may have several issues. If the bridge is rolled all the way down in playing setup (as in the photo), the neck angle needs to be checked. Also, and contradicting the previous, the PU seems to be in a prone position. Could the rattle, which you haven't characterized, simply be due to the strings being too close. Finally, metal bridges may produce sitar-like buzz if the string rests on a flat surface. The photo neither reveals nor excludes this.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

someone mentioned dental floss that might work fine.

That was me. Dental floss is the Swiss Army Knife of simple tools. It’s great for removing things held to surfaces by double sided tape - auto trim, picture hangers etc. If you can find it, Teflon (ptfe) floss is the best I’ve used for pulling through softer adhesives, heated glues etc. But thin waxed floss works well too. There’s a wider floss called dental tape that’s useful for its strength and resistance to fraying when removing larger items like automotive side trim.

I use floss as internal cable ties for neat and proper wire routing in electronics. Tie it around loops of redundant pickup or control wire to keep the wire from flopping against the inside of the body. I tie it to pots, jacks, switches etc before removing them from guitars. Leave it long and secure the free end around something large, light and soft to keep it from falling into the body while you’re working.

It’s a great damper. Wrap it around a humbucker (low enough not to be seen from above when the pickup is installed) so it gently contacts the ring, to stop rattling. It’s a great gasket. If a plastic lens on your sunglasses gets loose over time (some shrink after a few years), loosen the retaining screw and run floss around the edge of the lens one or two times. Put it back, tighten the screws, and it’s fixed.

With a little imagination, there’s no limit to the utility of dental floss.

[John A.]

That was me. Dental floss is the Swiss Army Knife of simple tools. It’s great for removing things held to surfaces by double sided tape - auto trim, picture hangers etc.

Just to be sure it's not mint flavored. Don't ask me how I know.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Just to be sure it's not mint flavored. Don't ask me how I know.

There are beter ways of cleaning the surface than licking it, John...