Modern Design Carved Archtops

[j.l]

Hi all—I'm starting to explore the world of carved archtops, after spending all my archtop time on laminates. I've been able to play a fair number of classic Gibson-style carved archtops, and some Eastman/Benedetto style. What I haven't been able to play are any examples of a "modern design" carved guitar: I'm thinking here of guitars like Moffa, Schottmueller, Victor Baker, Pagelli, Tim Bram, Thorell, etc.

For those who have: Are there consistent differences in tone or feel, compared to the Gibson or Benedetto families? What, if any, do you think are the "advances" over more classic designs? All things considered, do you end up preferring modern designs, or the classic ones?

[Sam Sherry]

Hi all—I'm starting to explore the world of carved archtops . . . I've been able to play a fair number of classic Gibson-style carved archtops, and some Eastman/Benedetto style.

I own and play an Eastman archtop but saying "Eastman / Benedetto" is kind of like saying "Prius / Lamborghini."

What I haven't been able to play are any examples of a "modern design" carved guitar: I'm thinking here of guitars like Moffa, Schottmueller, Victor Baker, Pagelli, Tim Bram, Thorell, etc.

For those who have: Are there consistent differences in tone or feel, compared to the Gibson or Benedetto families?

The 21st-century model of guitar retailing is, to a large extent, based on the proposition that "models" are effectively fungible -- they're all the same. That's not entirely incorrect: Most Strats can be made to sound and feel a lot like most other Strats, and we gearheads tend to exaggerate the importance of very minor distinctions. But it's also true that there are outliers. It's a bell-curve, and there are instruments at both ends of the curve even off the factory assembly-lines.

The central concept of luthiery is that a skilled, experienced luthier can work with particular pieces of timber to maximize the chances of excellence.
It's safe to say that each luthier has a personal concept of "excellence." From that perspective it is a mistake to look for consistency between luthiers.

I'll leave the follow-up to wiser minds.

All the best with your quest.

[Spook410]

[QUOTE=Sam Sherry;1438291]I own and play an Eastman archtop but saying "Eastman / Benedetto" is kind of like saying "Prius / Lamborghini."

Pretty sure the OP meant 'Benedetto pattern' which is what an Eastman is. A lot of Chinese archtops are based on Benedetto's book on archtop construction.

OP: There was a thread not too long back on 'modern sounding' archtops. Think the focus was on Treniers and there were several good sound clips. Also, I go back and forth between a Benedetto pattern (Chinese) and Gibson 175's and ES L5's regularly. The former is mainly an acoustic instrument with a pickup. The Gibson's are mainly electric guitars. They are all wonderful instruments though certainly not the same. Sometimes what you buy first is a matter of what the market puts in your path. In the long run, I see no reason not to own several different guitars to be enjoyed in the context they were designed for.

[mrwoland]

Yes, there are indeed some clear differences.
As mentioned by other members of this forum, classifying guitars (and luthiers) is never an easy task. Still, in my very personal (and therefore debatable) view, the archtop world can roughly be divided into four main groups:

1. Vintage Gibsons
2. Vintage D’Angelicos
3. Modern Gibsons and luthiers drawing inspiration from their design and tone
4. Contemporary archtop builders, such as Monteleone, Mirabella, Parker, Wells, Ribbecke, and others

Within each of these categories, you’ll encounter striking variations in both sound and price, so the best way to understand them is always to play and compare in person.
That said, I would dare to say that modern archtops, in general, offer greater versatility.

[j.l]

Thanks, Spook—Benedetto pattern/style is exactly what I meant! (And also seems to me that it's a slightly different branch of the family tree than the makers I'm talking about here—but maybe that's not right?)

I remember reading that thread and found it very helpful, and completely agree that the more archtops, the better. I'm certainly not planning to give up my laminates! I guess I'm trying to get a sense of what the ideal tone(s) is/are that modern-design builders are going for. So, for instance, I know that many (all?) Victor Bakers are built with a sound post to diminish feedback; what tonal difference does that make? Many or most of the people who play these guitars are doing so with large pedalboards and a more-or-less heavily effected tone—I'd guess these builders are shaping the construction and tonality of the guitar to fit with such situations. But it's hard to know whether that's right, or how it cashes out in practice, without having played them!

[arnie65]

I think John D'Angelico, and later Jimmy D'Aquisto set the standard for everyone that came later on, of course with Benedetto being the most prolific. I think most archtop luthiers today have been influenced by one of those three, and have incorporated and/or adopted some of their techniques etc. I know from a conversation with (Gibson's) master luthier James Hutchins, that he was strongly influenced by D'Angelico. From time to time, I see some of the later generation of luthiers that will employ totally different patterns and ways of bracing, tap tuning tops, etc.. One I admired was the late Taku Sakashta, who tragically loss his life too early.



Cheers,
Arnie...

[GuyBoden]

Here's my modern carved archtop:



I have a Blonde too.

IMHO, My modern Archtops sound more similar to an acoustic guitar than older 1930-50's archtops, which were designed to cut thru in a Big Band.

[mrwoland]

Is that a Wu?

[Spook410]

Thing is.. if you want something nice but not too crazy expensive, what to get? Could be wrong but seems like archtop prices are pretty good for the moment. I'm also in the market. Where I live won't be able to play it first. I'm thinking Trenier based on reputation and sound bites but there are a lot of other good builders. Still, a used Campellone is more likelly because they come up from time to time. And yea.. I should get to selling all the stuff I don't play rather than worrying about new acquisitions. But what's the fun in that?

[deacon Mark]

One cannot build a current modern archtop today that will sound like a 1930's Dangelico or Gibson. Time is required in a fine instrument but that said there can be different building schools. To me the 1930-40's Gibson and Dangelico's rank as some of the best sounding guitars made to my ears. Once the 50's start and recording in studios because much more prevalent then pure power in an acoustic archtop did not get quite the same attention.

Archtop guitars made earlier were in fact a way to deal with no amplification and be heard as rhythm instruments basically. The modern archtop has a much different focus and attention at least with most players. I am personally not a fan of much that goes against tradition in terms of looks and appointments. Benedetto is influential but he did not influence everyone. I have mentioned this before. I was around Bill Barker and Bill Hollenbeck and neither of them had any influence of Benedetto at all. Barker was making guitars before Benedetto and was influence by Carl Albanus Johnson, D'angelico and Epiphone to some degree. Carl Barney was making guitars before Benedetto I believe or at least when he started but I don't know his background.

Most of the modern guitars I have played start with the Chinery Blue Collection in terms of builders, and this was in the late 1990's. I played every one of the blue guitars and they all are different. By and large they were all great guitars and well made. Saying which one is better or the best is impossible. Like trying to find the best major league baseball player of all time. You have to judge a guitar based on its time and history and what the guitar became or is in historical roots.

If I were going after an archtop guitar today and I must admit I am always looking my picks are this

Gibson
Dangelico

What comes next then just depends on the guitar. There are guitars that are not on my radar scope at all. Mostly because they are clearly too expensive or I don't care about them or at least check on them all that much. To that I add these fine guitars.

D'aquisto as good as they get but from my perspective, I will never be able to afford one, so they don't count.

Monteleone for the exact same reason. John makes maybe the finest but prices run steep. The best compliment I ever heard of his work came from Bill Hollenbeck who said if he could not play one of his own guitars then he wanted a Monteleone

When it comes down to the quickest and fastest approach to getting a fine archtop a Gibson L5 remains the stellar guitar. First of all because they still are quite affordable and plenty of them, yet they are not being made. They combine all the aspects of a perfect guitar. To that I will say the advances of newer makes are not necessarily better but different. I have never played a newer builder's guitar that sounds like my 1938 L5. To me not necessarily better different. It sounds different than my acoustic 2003 L5 but the 2003 has nothing to be ashamed of it is on par.

Trenier Guitars are also great and affordable they would be on my list. What is not on my list are guitars that cannot be resold due to lack of public knowledge about them. I don't want to name any names, but I can tell you I see guitars from builders with very high prices, and I think, no one will be buying any of these any time soon. These days the value of a guitar is also in the fudge factor of what if I want or need to sell it? I could point to list of boutique builders and high prices but not many playing them. If you like the guitar and it does what you need then maybe that does come in the picture. For me it does.

Classic or Modern? Do you like Ginger or Mary Ann?

[wintermoon]

One cannot build a current modern archtop today that will sound like a 1930's Dangelico or Gibson. Time is required in a fine instrument but that said there can be different building schools. To me the 1930-40's Gibson and Dangelico's rank as some of the best sounding guitars made to my ears. Once the 50's start and recording in studios because much more prevalent then pure power in an acoustic archtop did not get quite the same attention.

Archtop guitars made earlier were in fact a way to deal with no amplification and be heard as rhythm instruments basically. The modern archtop has a much different focus and attention at least with most players. I am personally not a fan of much that goes against tradition in terms of looks and appointments. Benedetto is influential but he did not influence everyone. I have mentioned this before. I was around Bill Barker and Bill Hollenbeck and neither of them had any influence of Benedetto at all. Barker was making guitars before Benedetto and was influence by Carl Albanus Johnson, D'angelico and Epiphone to some degree. Carl Barney was making guitars before Benedetto I believe or at least when he started but I don't know his background.

Most of the modern guitars I have played start with the Chinery Blue Collection in terms of builders, and this was in the late 1990's. I played every one of the blue guitars and they all are different. By and large they were all great guitars and well made. Saying which one is better or the best is impossible. Like trying to find the best major league baseball player of all time. You have to judge a guitar based on its time and history and what the guitar became or is in historical roots.

If I were going after an archtop guitar today and I must admit I am always looking my picks are this

Gibson
Dangelico

What comes next then just depends on the guitar. There are guitars that are not on my radar scope at all. Mostly because they are clearly too expensive or I don't care about them or at least check on them all that much. To that I add these fine guitars.

D'aquisto as good as they get but from my perspective, I will never be able to afford one, so they don't count.

Monteleone for the exact same reason. John makes maybe the finest but prices run steep. The best compliment I ever heard of his work came from Bill Hollenbeck who said if he could not play one of his own guitars then he wanted a Monteleone

When it comes down to the quickest and fastest approach to getting a fine archtop a Gibson L5 remains the stellar guitar. First of all because they still are quite affordable and plenty of them, yet they are not being made. They combine all the aspects of a perfect guitar. To that I will say the advances of newer makes are not necessarily better but different. I have never played a newer builder's guitar that sounds like my 1938 L5. To me not necessarily better different. It sounds different than my acoustic 2003 L5 but the 2003 has nothing to be ashamed of it is on par.

Trenier Guitars are also great and affordable they would be on my list. What is not on my list are guitars that cannot be resold due to lack of public knowledge about them. I don't want to name any names, but I can tell you I see guitars from builders with very high prices, and I think, no one will be buying any of these any time soon. These days the value of a guitar is also in the fudge factor of what if I want or need to sell it? I could point to list of boutique builders and high prices but not many playing them. If you like the guitar and it does what you need then maybe that does come in the picture. For me it does.

Classic or Modern? Do you like Ginger or Mary Ann?

To my ears D'Angelicos generally didn't get more 'subdued' until the late 50s early 60s
I think we're looking at the greatest baseball player ever in Ohtani, though a case can be made for Ruth/ Mays
Oh, and Ginger 8 days a week

[deacon Mark]

To my ears D'Angelicos generally didn't get more 'subdued' until the late 50s early 60s
I think we're looking at the greatest baseball player ever in Ohtani, though a case can be made for Ruth/ Mays
Oh, and Ginger 8 days a week

At the moment I will go with Mays the best all round player and Williams by far the greatest pure hitter.

I take Mary Ann any day over Ginger.

[wintermoon]

At the moment I will go with Mays the best all round player and Williams by far the greatest pure hitter.

I take Mary Ann any day over Ginger.

Understood about Mays, but Ohtani's an outstanding pitcher.
Maryann wins most of those polls but I'll take the tall sultry redhead over the short brunette farm girl from Kansas.
Good consolation prize though

[Cunamara]

...in my very personal (and therefore debatable) view, the archtop world can roughly be divided into four main groups:

1. Vintage Gibsons
2. Vintage D’Angelicos
3. Modern Gibsons and luthiers drawing inspiration from their design and tone
4. Contemporary archtop builders, such as Monteleone, Mirabella, Parker, Wells, Ribbecke, and others

[...]
That said, I would dare to say that modern archtops, in general, offer greater versatility.

Nicely delineated. I think I would quibble and add under #3 "late period D'Aquistos" which often seem to be the inspiration for #4. Or perhaps that should be part of #4. I think that Jimmy D was the turning point for contemporary archtop guitar design.

You make a good point about the versatility of modern archtops; their intent is somewhat different than the big band era archtops which were designed to be loud and cutting (replacing the banjo in big bands), and also different than the modern Gibson style design (post-ES-150, really) which is primarily aimed towards electric use. The modern/contemporary luthiers seem to be focused again on acoustic voice with amplification added. A lot of those makers show a real flair and unconventional thinking which I find attractive, although I'll never be able to afford any of those instruments. I think Benedetto had a hand in inspiring that, as well, which he has pointed out goes back to the Gibson Johnny Smith.

[omphalopsychos]

I've played all of them. Guess which ones I've kept .


One thing I don't like about the modern builders is how ridiculously slim the necks are. Rather than inspiring me to play jazz, I feel like my left hand is holding an Ibanez RG.

[Cunamara]

Classic or Modern? Do you like Ginger or Mary Ann?

I'm kind of partial to the modern guitars, although I can't afford any of them or for that matter any of the classic carved Gibsons, D'Angelico's, etc. my ES-175, GB10 and Cushman archtop will have to do (and they do, handsomely. I am by no means suffering.

As for your other question: Mary Ann. Let me pose the slightly more updated version: Bailey or Jennifer?

[Cunamara]

I think we're looking at the greatest baseball player ever in Ohtani, though a case can be made for Ruth/ Mays

A "case" for Willie Mays?

[wintermoon]

A "case" for Willie Mays?

great catch and Mays was obviously the man but to play devil's advocate how many games did he pitch?
Ohtani has already won 4 MVP's in 5 years all by unanimous vote, Mays had 2 MVP's in his entire career.

[Spook410]

I've played all of them. Guess which ones I've kept .


One thing I don't like about the modern builders is how ridiculously slim the necks are. Rather than inspiring me to play jazz, I feel like my left hand is holding an Ibanez RG.

So.. which ones did you keep?

Necks are my big gripe in general. I prefer a more substantial neck. Playing my Gibson 335 seems like I'm warming up for mandolin.

[Rickco]

Personally I find the sound of a well made archtop to have more to do with the player than the instrument. All the luthiers mentioned have been promoted and exposed to the public through enthusiastic owners on forums like this, otherwise they would not be familiar to most players. No doubt these are extremely fine instruments but, Im an old guy so Ive heard 5 of the most famous players in a living room playing a '40s D'An made for one of them by John. Living quite close I heard that guitar a lot played extremely well. A few times I got to strumm it and also hear an "intermediate" player...didnt even sound like the same guitar. My point is that one of the finest archtops anyone will see or own sounds very different in every players hands. There are many fine luthiers you will never hear of, 2 that I found were Lombardozzi and Solomon neither of which I was aware of and both as accomplished as any of the modern makers mentioned, that said they can only sound as good as the player. You cant hear or play them all, someone elses experience will likely be different than yours. I think buying based on probable resale value is a poor way to vet an instrument. As all have said you have to play it or "you pays you money you take your chances". Due to life I have to part with some, Im sure I wont recover what I spent but whatever it cost in the end it was well worth enjoying them while I could and Id do it again. I sure as hell wouldnt get hung up on opinions as varied as you will find in the media. I wouldnt trade any of mine for that D'An from years ago simply because it wouldnt sound like I remember it in my hands and those priceless tonal nuances would be lost. Good luck in your hunt "its the joulney,glasshopll". For the record, I came across the for mentioned luthiers here and there were several others of impeccable quality Id like to try...so many guitars, so little time

[SierraTango]

"I own and play an Eastman archtop but saying "Eastman / Benedetto" is kind of like saying "Prius / Lamborghini."

As the owner/player/caretaker of both a Bob built 1990 Benedetto Cremona and a 05 Eastman Pisano 880 I find this comment amusing. Both the Prius and the Lambo will get you from point A to point B, however you would probably prefer the Toyota on a long interstate slog. You wouldn't worry much about a rock chip, fuel would be less. But when the going gets twisty, you want the Lambo!

To the OP: you might consider attending one of the events that feature Archtop luthiers. I know there is one in Colorado:https://www.archtopfestival.com/

There used to a big show in Healdsburg, CA but I don't know if it still is going on. Surely there is one on the East coast. I attended the CA show years ago and met/spoke with many builders/vendors it was really an eye opener. Added plus is there is usually plenty of top notch players demonstrating the goods!

[jads57]

So a couple of things already mentioned,but here’s my take. There are some basic designs that stand the test of time in guitar making.
And that goes with Archtops as well.
Basically you want an acoustic instrument and then choose to amplify it. Or you want a compromise of acoustic and electric.

The latter is what most working musicians will choose, like the venerable Gibson L-5CES. Or maybe a laminate ES-175 instrument.
These are the most recorded tones we all love and here by the masters.
The Johnny Smith also comes to mind as more of an acoustic electric as well. Even the J.S.is copy of his D’Anglico.

More modern is mostly in looks,and tweaks to the bracing,bridge,tail piece, and maybe recurve? Sure there are different sizes as well as more modern electronics to add in.
I love the basic Gibson L-5CES, and Johnny Smith tones for true Archtops.

For a laminate I love my Benedetto Bambino Std. Which is a more streamlined ES-175. I enjoy the dimensions and wood choices better.

[Spook410]

Personally I find the sound of a well made archtop to have more to do with the player than the instrument.

While I pretty much completely, and respectfully, disagree with this, it's kind of moot in any case.

What matters to me is how the guitar sounds when I play it. And with my moderate skills, I find materials, construction, and design matter quite a lot. Not to mention how many years the guitar has been in active service. They may all sound the same in the hands of Julian Lage (they don't.. but for arguments sake..) but in my hands I've found the differences noticeable. Which of course means.. I now have too many guitars.

[StormyMonday]

There are many fine luthiers you will never hear of, 2 that I found were Lombardozzi and Solomon neither of which I was aware of and both as accomplished as any of the modern makers mentioned, that said they can only sound as good as the player.

I was having a yard sale in New Hampshire and a guy asked if I had any instruments. I told him I only buy instruments. 30 minutes later he's back with 2 guitar cases. It was Erich Solomon and boy I loved those guitars. I got real attached to his acoustic Abraxas model but the traditional archtop was also gorgeous, sadly both out of my price range but he does great work.

[omphalopsychos]

So.. which ones did you keep?

Necks are my big gripe in general. I prefer a more substantial neck. Playing my Gibson 335 seems like I'm warming up for mandolin.

For me the vintage and vintage inspired ones. My 37 D'Angelico Excel has a neck that's over 1" in depth at the first fret!