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I am planning to invest in a new guitar in the not so distant future, and am contemplating a Gibson ES-175 or maybe an Ibanez PM200 (or possibly a LGB300).
I owned an ES-175 many years ago, and know that it is a very versatile electric guitar. I used my ES-175 in rock bands, free-jazz settings and in more mainstream jazz settings.
These days I am mostly into jazz, but I still appreciate to have a guitar that has a broad range of sound possibilities and can be used in different musical settings. I understand that the PM200 is very much modelled after Metheny’s ES-175, and that MIJ Ibanez guitars have impeccable build quality. But how does the PM200 compare to the ES-175 when it comes to sound quality? Does it have the dark "thunk" characteristics of the ES-175, or does it have a more bright sound quality?
Currently my only jazz guitar is an Ibanez 2453 Howard Roberts custom, and while it is a nice guitar, it lacks any kind of ES-175 dark thunk. The 2453 has a bright and clear sound.
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12-05-2025 06:35 AM
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I assume that if you want versatility a brighter guitar will be better. It will take overdrive and effects better. To me versatility implies using effects and dirt.
Not everyone will have the same view of what is "versatile". If you play many styles of music, a ES175 isn't the best guitar. I know some guys used archtops in various styles (Steve Howe, Ted Nugent, or even Steve Vai recently.. ).
The most crossover guitar is the ES335, but a Telecaster or Stratocaster also.. it's all in the fingers.
If you want the thump, nothing else than an archtop will do it, in my opinion.
The PM200 may be more modern sounding than the ES175, with still a certain amount of thump due to its design.
Maybe a thinline archtop with floating bridge will be in the middle of the road. But their aren't a lot around...
There's a D'Angelico in that vein (which I can't remember the name) that has got me very curious.. I'm going to search what exact model it is
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It's DAngelico Excel SS Soho Amaretto Burst
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Thank you for proving good advice and interesting information.
Originally Posted by Jx30510
I understand what you mention about the ES335, Telecaster and Stratocaster. Ideally one should own many different types of guitar, archtop, solid body, acoustic etc. Different guitars for different styles of music.
The D’Angelico guitar you suggest looks very nice, I need to find more information about it.
My initial query could probably have been better formulated, but I am mainly interested in learning more about alternatives to the ES-175, because I am wanting to purchase an ES-175 type archtop guitar. My Ibanez 2453 is nice but "one dimensional", in lack of a better formulation, sound wise. So I am wondering how the current MIJ Ibanez archtops compare to the ES-175 in terms of sound characteristics and versatility? Does the mahogany neck and larger body of the PM200 give it a darker sound reminiscent of the ES-175? What about the LGB300 sound wise?
Where I live there is no place to test play new (or second hand) Gibson or Ibanez archtops. So the safest bet (only option) is to order a brand new guitar, and then Ibanez is one of the best options. Maybe also new Eastman and D’Angelico archtop guitars. It is a pity that there are fewer and fewer guitar shops in my country that have archtops (new or second hand) in stock, to try out.
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Try entering this into google:
es-175 alternative site:jazzguitar.be
You will find your questions about 175 clones/alternatives answered many times over.
Regarding the specific comparison between the PM200 and the 175, Metheny claims he can't tell the difference between the two in recordings, so I think it's safe to say the PM200 has dark thunk covered. T 2-pickup 175 is going to be a lot more versatile than a 1-pickup PM200, but if you're looking for true versatility/adaptability to other styles and/or overdrive, the best option is to have more than one guitar (as most of us do).
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Thank you John A.!
I have in fact read many threads on this forum about ES-175 clones/alternatives.
Further, I have not found much specific information about the top of the line MIJ Ibanez PM200 and LGB300 compared to the ES-175. The things you mention about the PM200 is very helpful advice. I will keep this in mind in my quest.
My dilemma is searching for a really good ES-175 when there are so few to play test here, compared to going for a new or a lightly used PM200, which as far as I understand, are all impeccably built and very good, and could be ordered on line without the need for play testing.
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In my limited experience I will say this. Recently, I went through a bunch of archtop guitars, two of them being a Gibson ES-165 and an Ibanez PM100. I understand the PM100 is not a PM200, but it is should be very close and I understand the ES-165 has one pickup, not two, but again should be in the same ballpark.
IMO the 165 had "that" jazz guitar sound. It was darker sounding than the pm100 with a more percussive attack but a very sweet high end. It never sounded brittle through the entire sweep of the tone knob but it was also never muddy. It had a sound and feel that I had been searching for high and low and I think about that guitar and feeling nearly daily. Unfortunately, that guitar had broken braces and other issues so it went away. Gibson guitars seem to have quirks and are obviously more expensive. Funny enough, I played a 335 studio at my local Guitar Center a couple weeks back and it had a very similar sound and feel to the 165 (with obvious differences, of course). There is something about the way Gibson makes guitars where they have this very pleasing natural warmth to their sound - I don't know what that is, exactly.
The PM100 was a very good guitar. However, it did not have that warmth thing going on in the way the Gibson guitar had. I found the PM100 had the capability of being a warm guitar plugged in but it was much more varied through the tone knob sweep - it could get quite bright if you wanted it to. The build quality was great and the tone was very even across all strings in all positions. The PM100 (and other Japanese guitars I've owned, for that matter) felt like if you took any Asian-made guitar and threw a ton of quality control on it and also used better quality woods. I mean none of this in a bad way. With Thomastik strings this guitar could indeed thunk for me. I ended up returning the PM100 because the size of the waist is bigger than a 175 which made the guitar sit higher in my lap and it was uncomfortable to me in a way I could never get around, otherwise I would have kept it (I have a bad right shoulder). Ordering blind I would say an Ibanez is a better choice given the extreme care and quality control of Japanese made guitars, which may be good for you.
The Gibson to me felt more inspiring while having some quirks to deal with, while the PM100 felt more like a very high quality tool. As to which is more versatile? An ES-175 by virtue of having 2 pickups will be more versatile. However, I've never found jazz boxes, even with 2 pickups, to really sit super well in a genre outside jazz. You could get a 335 and cover a ton of ground, but then it will never have that thunky percussive sound a jazz box has. Even a jazz box really needs flats to thunk, and then it would become less versatile for other genres. It seems at some point you have to pick a route/sound for a guitar and stick to it. This is where I personally find a strong case for having a couple guitars.
My 2c, YMMV.
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Another point for the ES-165 (and other Gibson guitars, I'm sure) - it smelled very good
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Maybe it is the Gibson glue? Originally Posted by chris32895
Another point for the ES-165 (and other Gibson guitars, I'm sure) - it smelled very good
Thank you for providing such an interesting comparison between the PM100 and ES-165! I understand what you write about the "Gibson warmth", it is exactly such characteristics that I am wanting to understand more about.
I also play the saxophone, and there is much analogy with the differences between Gibson vs Ibanez and differences between Selmer saxophones vs Yamaha/Yanagizawa. Selmer saxophones, especially Selmer Mark Vi saxophones vary a lot, some are brilliant others are dogs. There are also these hard-to-define sound characteristics that make Selmer saxophones special, even the more modern (post Mark VI) Selmer saxophones. Oftentimes one can hear about sloppy quality control at Selmer Paris, and that Japanese saxophones are built to a higher standard than Selmer. But still there is some kind of "sound magic" that have characterised Selmer saxophones in all their saxophone series, that Yamaha and Yanagisawa have not nailed.
Maybe Gibson and Selmer Paris should engage in a partnership? Ha ha
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Here's Jonathan Kreisberg playing an Ibanez PM200:
And his usual ES-175
Hope this helps.
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Thank you for the videos Cunamara!
I have watched the Kreisberg PM200 video before. The "My Favourite Things" versions on the ES-175 are new to me, Kreisberg sounds equally good on both the Gibson and the Ibanez.
Does Kreisberg perform on Ibanez guitars in addition to his ES-175, or was the PM200 video just a demo session?
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Jazz guitarists look for the "thunk".
Heavy metal look for the "chug"
We need a guy like this for the jazzers :
"Will it thunk?"
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Great video and concept Originally Posted by Jx30510
Jazz guitarists look for the "thunk".
Heavy metal look for the "chug"
We need a guy like this for the jazzers :
"Will it thunk?"
I wonder what sounds this bold Swede would have gotten out of an Ibanez GB10 and a Polytone Mini Brute? Anyway - probably the wrong guitarist for "Will it thunk".
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Yeah, I already saw a vid of this guy when searching info on a pedal, or something. And I remembered his concept (will it chug?), when I read your comment (will it thump)
Well, we all have our little idea of what a guitar should do
I don't listen to that kind of music, but I 'm very often impressed by heavy metal guitarists.. they know their stuff
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You're welcome! Originally Posted by Djangology
JK uses the ES-175 for performances. I think the Ibanez video was a one-off and the guitar belonged to someone else. He still sounded like Jonathan Kreisberg either way. He is one of my favorite current guitarists, along with Peter Bernstein (Zeidler carved top) and lately David Becker (Heritage H-575, I think). JK's stuff with the Dr. Lonnie Smith organ trio is amazingly good. Lots of guitarists played with Dr. Lonnie, but JK is my favorite.
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Have you looked on Youtube? Originally Posted by Djangology
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...y=Ibanez+PM200
Same for other models that interest you.
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Had both a 90s Es-175 and an almost new Pm200.
Pm200 is a superb built guitar, i dont like the sound of the pickups.
Gibson was better, couldnt tell you why really, construction wise Pm200 was made in japan and was a perfect build. THe sound didnt inspired me.
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