Original Gibson ES-165 Construction

[JazzNote]

I just came across an interview with Herb Ellis who explains that the difference of the signature HE ES165 to a ES 175 would be that the 165 is made of "real wood", not plywood as the 175. (see linked video at 22:40 / need to open this in Youtube).
Does anyone know when Gibson changed to laminated ES 165's? Is it even possible to find one made of solid wood?
TIA

[pcjazz]

I just came across an interview with Herb Ellis who explains that the difference of the signature HE ES165 to a ES 175 would be that the 165 is made of "real wood", not plywood as the 175. (see linked video at 22:40 / need to open this in Youtube).
Does anyone know when Gibson changed to laminated ES 165's? Is it even possible to find one made of solid wood?

I believe it’s called an L4.

[Cunamara]

AFAIK the ES-165 or Herb Ellis model was always laminated. I think that Herb was just incorrect about that. It was copied after his 1950s ES-175, which originally came with a P90 and was later replaced with a humbucker. A forum member actually owns that guitar. There was also an Aria Herb Ellis model for a short time, I don't know whether that was solid wood or laminated (Aria Pro II PE-175), but thatrhythmnman's website indicates laminated.

This wouldn't be a surprise, as there was a whole school of jazz guitarists of that generation who felt that laminated guitars sounded better amplified than carved guitars (Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Joe Pass, Jim Hall, etc.).

The L4C and L4CES were carved top and back, solid wood and shaped like the ES-175/ES-165. The shape of the ES-175 has changed over the nearly 80 years it's been in production. It's possible that the ES-165 reflected the shape of Herb's original ES-175 versus the more modern ES-175 you compared it to. The Heritage Sweet 16 and H-575 were both ES-175 shaped and made of solid carved wood. I've always wanted to try them, and also the L4CES.

However, I could be wrong and perhaps the early ES-165 production runs were solid wood. Adrian Ingram's history of the ES-175 also indicates that the ES-165 was laminated, though.

[213Cobra]

Who'd a thunk it -- two ES-165 threads simultaneously.

I posted in the other thread, the following. Note that I have both versions of the ES-165, and a neck-pickuponly L4CES. There were no solid wood(s) ES-165s released as production guitars to the public.

I have three ES-165s. A 1991 (1st year of production that I've had for now 34 years), a 1992, and a 2007. First, if the OP has a v2 Herb with the BJB floater, plugged-in that is a very different-sounding guitar than any of the v1 Herbs with a single set-in humbucker pickup, and different acoustically. BTW, I've never seen a "real wood" 165, whatever that meant to Herb. The 165/175 construction is laminated wood -- still derived from real wood, just not solid carved or pressed. I also have the closest thing to a "real wood" 165 in the form of a single (neck) pickup 2010 Custom Shop L4CES. It doesn't sound at all like an ES-165 of either version, both by virtue of having a carved top, and also for having mahogany back & sides.

I've also had a couple of ES-175s over the years (and played many others), the most recent one from 2010. The dimensional differences cited by the OP are, IME, just normal Gibson production variances. That is to say, I've had 175s in my hands that had necks as thick as my '91 and the tad-thinner necked '92 165, and other 175s were notably thinner. Same with cutaway curves, body-depth and minor headstock dimensional differences. IME my early-build 165s have a sharply more resonant acoustic sound than any two-pickups 175 I've ever played, unsurprising since there isn't a fat bridge pickup damping the middle of the top. I also had a 175 that had a measured top thickness (at the F-holes) identical to my v1 165s. Version 1 Herbs did develop some neck dimensional differences later in the 1990s, usually a bit thinner then the '91, though I hear about the occasional late v1s that are described as having notably fat necks. 165s plugged-in are somewhat brighter, less "warm" than 175s I've played. The v1 Herbs have a 490R pickup. The 2007 165 with the BJB floater is distinctly lighter in weight than either of my v1 165s, and though plywood, it has a surprisingly useful pure acoustic sound that is also distinctly different from either of the v1 builds from the early '90s. Plugged-in, it's a brighter guitar. For the record, I have never bonded with a 175, but am unreservedly enthusiastic about 165s, especially the v1s.

Of course 175s were made much longer, and went through maple and maple/mahogany mixed construction, varying top thicknesses, etc. so there is a wider sonic variation to 175s over its production life than the 1991-2002 (or so -- IIRC the changeover to the floater v2 Herb was done in 2004, but I imagine the change must have started during the 2003 calendar year) ES-165 Herb Ellis.

Phil

[JazzNote]

BTW, I've never seen a "real wood" 165, whatever that meant to Herb.

I always supposed the 165 was laminate, so I just wondered if I might have been wrong. But as the linked interview took place at a late stage of his career, Herb's memories about certain things may have somewhat faded - something which he even mentions in the interview himself.

[JazzNote]

There was also an Aria Herb Ellis model for a short time, I don't know whether that was solid wood or laminated (Aria Pro II PE-175), but thatrhythmnman's website indicates laminated.

Around 25 years ago I had a student who had a the time bought a brand new Aria Herb Ellis. This came certainly not with a carved top. Interestingly, quite soon the neck got warped but he was then given a a new one and stayed quite happy with it.

[garybaldy]

There was also an Aria Herb Ellis model for a short time, I don't know whether that was solid wood or laminated (Aria Pro II PE-175), but thatrhythmnman's website indicates laminated.

I think I read somewhere that the Aria had a soundpost.

[ThatRhythmMan]

I think I read somewhere that the Aria had a soundpost.

That is correct. The Aria Herb Ellis models, at least most of them, have a sound post. As an aside, the model name of the guitar is sometimes stamped PE-185, but typically it’s PE-175. I don’t think there is a significant difference, except maybe some minor cosmetics.


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[wintermoon]

I just came across an interview with Herb Ellis who explains that the difference of the signature HE ES165 to a ES 175 would be that the 165 is made of "real wood", not plywood as the 175. (see linked video at 22:40 / need to open this in Youtube).
Does anyone know when Gibson changed to laminated ES 165's? Is it even possible to find one made of solid wood?
TIA

never take an old musician's word as to something like this, playing is their forte not guitar specs.

[ThatRhythmMan]

never take an old musician's word as to something like this, playing is their forte not guitar specs.

Herb also died of complications associated with Alzheimer’s disease and was likely experiencing some effects by this point.


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[2bornot2bop]

Don’t we have a member here who has one of Herb’s ES165’s? Or maybe it was an ES175, can’t recall.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Don’t we have a member here who has one of Herb’s ES165’s? Or maybe it was an ES175, can’t recall.

I have his 1953 ES-175, the one that was converted from P90 to patent number humbucker circa 1962.


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[garybaldy]

I think I read somewhere that the Aria had a soundpost.

Nice pic.

[Archie]

I have his 1953 ES-175, the one that was converted from P90 to patent number humbucker circa 1962.


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The ES-165 is no different ime to an ES175 and is not modelled off of his old ES-175.
A lot off companies will hype up a models production and it’s uniqueness (marketing), for you to then discover the only thing unique about it is the truss rod cover. We’ve all seen this and we all know why they do it.
The ES-165 is a singe pickup version of the modern post 1990’s ES175.
The formers and subsequent plates pressed to make the ES165 are the same as the 175. You can tell by the pronounced raised horn shape, in the upper left bout portion of the plate. This style of plate was introduced the 60’s and is noticeably different to the shape used in the 1950’s and early 60’s.
The style used in the original (above guitar), is that of the older 'symmetric carve pattern’. Or at least that is a term I have created to categorise it. There is likely already a term but I don't know it.
The later asymmetric style, is what we have to this day.

[Sleeko]

Always wondered what the contraption is over the strings connected at the headstock. Is it a mute?

[ThatRhythmMan]

Always wondered what the contraption is over the strings connected at the headstock. Is it a mute?

That’s an original Van Eps string damper. It was invented by George Van Eps and the rights were later sold to Gibson. The Gibson made ones mounted the same as a truss rod cover. As the name implies, it dampens the strings via the felt pad that is on the underside of the bar that is sitting on the strings just below the nut. It can flip up and off of the strings if wanted.


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[Sleeko]

That’s an original Van Eps string damper. It was invented by George Van Eps and the rights were later sold to Gibson. The Gibson made ones mounted the same as a truss rod cover. As the name implies, it dampens the strings via the felt pad that is on the underside of the bar that is sitting on the strings just below the nut. It can flip up and off of the strings if wanted.


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Cool, I'm guessing it was like the sponge in the chrome cover placed over the tailpiece/ bridge on earlier Fender electric basses to keep the strings from ringing.

[garybaldy]

That’s an original Van Eps string damper. It was invented by George Van Eps and the rights were later sold to Gibson. The Gibson made ones mounted the same as a truss rod cover. As the name implies, it dampens the strings via the felt pad that is on the underside of the bar that is sitting on the strings just below the nut. It can flip up and off of the strings if wanted.


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Does anyone use one of these nowadays? I don't think my '63 175 needs one.

[2bornot2bop]

Cool, I'm guessing it was like the sponge in the chrome cover placed over the tailpiece/ bridge on earlier Fender electric basses to keep the strings from ringing.

Calling James Jamerson.

[arnie65]

Around 25 years ago I had a student who had a the time bought a brand new Aria Herb Ellis. This came certainly not with a carved top. Interestingly, quite soon the neck got warped but he was then given a a new one and stayed quite happy with it.

There were two versions of the Aria "Herb Ellis", the earlier one was better built; I had an earlier late 70's model, and it sounded better than my ES175. It had tone in spades, with tight lows and thick sound, however it was a boat anchor, very heavy, so I stupidly sold it....



Cheers,
Arnie..

[John A.]

Does anyone use one of these nowadays? I don't think my '63 175 needs one.

Nowadays, I don’t know think so. I took lessons in the 80s from a guy who was a George Van Eps disciple, and he had one on his Gretsch 7-String. That’s the only one I’ve ever seen in the wild.

I guess if you play a lot of voicings with open strings and you really want them to not sound like open strings it’s useful. Otherwise it’s kind of a solution in search of a problem.

[garybaldy]

“… the first time I heard Charlie Christian I thought he really wasn’t so much, because I felt I could play faster than that. Then after a few more times it really hit me, and I realized that speed wasn’t everything. I got quite emotional — put my guitar away and said I’d never play again. But the next day I got it out and started to try to play like Charlie.” -Herb Ellis

[John A.]

I just googled around to see what the interwebs have to say about string damping, and apparently some people use hair scrunchies for that. I have seen that, and just assumed it was where hair-metal guys (and Jens Larsen) keep their spare scrunchies.

Didn’t realize there was a guitaristic purpose. I haven’t kept up with this tech. The last time I had enough hair for a pony tail (or even to bother with a comb), I don’t think scrunchies had been invented. This post probably belongs in the baldness thread …

[lammie200]

There are several companies that make guitar-specific Velcro dampeners. I go through months of using them and months without. They can be handy at times. Definitely better than the OG that was required to be screwed down.