Gibson ES-175 and ES-165 Differences

[jaymen]

I have a 1989 ES-175 and a 2003 ES-165, and here are the notable differences:
Other than the pick-ups and controls, here is what I noted:


The ES-165 neck is slightly thicker, wider, and has a bigger heel that blends in to the neck further up towards the peghead.
The peghead of the ES-165 is slightly narrower and the tips are not a pointy as the ES-175
The ES-165 body is 1/4" thinner than the ES-175, and the cutaway on the ES-156 has a slightly bigger radius, about 1/4".
The pick guard on the ES-165 is slightly different shape, but the same length.

Both have two braces under the top, and although both tops are maple laminates, the ES-165 has flamed maple veneer.
The ES-175, made in Bozeman, has laminated Mahogany sides and back, the ES-165, made in Memphis, has flames maple sides and back(laminated).
The ES-175 has a TOM bridge, while the ES-165 has an ABR bridge with the wire. The tailpiece is similar to early ES-175s on the ES-165 (Zig Zag wire)
Tuners are sealed Grovers on the ES-165, ES- 175 has Kluson Deluxe.

The ES-175D is definitely heavier than the ES-165 Herb Ellis, as it is a 2003 model with a floating mini humbucker.

So the ES-165 is really not a single pick-up version of the early model of the ES-175, as they have slightly different body and neck dimensions.
This then does point to it being a special version, most likely to Herb Ellis' specifications.

Interestingly, the ES-165 has a clearer and louder voice played unplugged with the same strings on both guitars. This could be the thicker top on the ES-175, and it being fitted with two humbuckers. Plugged in, the ES-175D has warmer, fuller sound, while the ES-165 has more definition and clarity with additional overtones. I did add a .022uF cap and 500K audio taper pot under the pick guard for tone control to the ES-165 to tame the bright floating mini humbucker (BJB?) The ES-165 can crossover to classic rock, surf, and country a little better than the ES-175D, but is not as feedback resistant in loud venues. Over-all, it is hard to say which one I like best, other than the Herb Ellis having much nicer wood/cosmetics.

[arnie65]

Love the ES165 with the humbucker, even after comparing it to a ES175 with a single humbucker side by side with the same amp. Just a mellow, clear, defined, fat tone. The fact that is cheaper than an ES175, is just the "cherry on top"...

cheers,
Arnie..

[floatingpickup]

I had a 2001 Herb Ellis ES-165 and the really strange thing about it, was that the label said ES-175. Weird, because everything about it was consistent with a 165, including Herb’s signature on the headstock.
Keith

[ThatRhythmMan]

I would guess most of the differences in dimensions are attributable to the era of construction. For what it’s worth Herb Ellis’s 1953 ES-175 has a standard 1 11/16” nut width, but a fairly shallow depth. It’s not nearly as chunky as some from the era.

Does the label say Bozeman on it? I’ve heard people say they had a Bozeman made one once or twice, but I’ve only seen Nashville and Memphis 165s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[213Cobra]

I have three ES-165s. A 1991 (1st year of production that I've had for now 34 years), a 1992, and a 2007. First, if the OP has a v2 Herb with the BJB floater, plugged-in that is a very different-sounding guitar than any of the v1 Herbs with a single set-in humbucker pickup, and different acoustically. BTW, I've never seen a "real wood" 165, whatever that meant to Herb. The 165/175 construction is laminated wood -- still derived from real wood, just not solid carved or pressed. I also have the closest thing to a "real wood" 165 in the form of a single (neck) pickup 2010 Custom Shop L4CES. It doesn't sound at all like an ES-165 of either version, both by virtue of having a carved top, and also for having mahogany back & sides.

I've also had a couple of ES-175s over the years (and played many others), the most recent one from 2010. The dimensional differences cited by the OP are, IME, just normal Gibson production variances. That is to say, I've had 175s in my hands that had necks as thick as my '91 and the tad-thinner necked '92 165, and other 175s were notably thinner. Same with cutaway curves, body-depth and minor headstock dimensional differences. IME my early-build 165s have a sharply more resonant acoustic sound than any two-pickups 175 I've ever played, unsurprising since there isn't a fat bridge pickup damping the middle of the top. I also had a 175 that had a measured top thickness (at the F-holes) identical to my v1 165s. Version 1 Herbs did develop some neck dimensional differences later in the 1990s, usually a bit thinner then the '91, though I hear about the occasional late v1s that are described as having notably fat necks. 165s plugged-in are somewhat brighter, less "warm" than 175s I've played. The v1 Herbs have a 490R pickup. The 2007 165 with the BJB floater is distinctly lighter in weight than either of my v1 165s, and though plywood, it has a surprisingly useful pure acoustic sound that is also distinctly different from either of the v1 builds from the early '90s. Plugged-in, it's a brighter guitar. For the record, I have never bonded with a 175, but am unreservedly enthusiastic about 165s, especially the v1s.

Of course 175s were made much longer, and went through maple and maple/mahogany mixed construction, varying top thicknesses, etc. so there is a wider sonic variation to 175s over its production life than the 1991-2002 (or so -- IIRC the changeover to the floater v2 Herb was done in 2004, but I imagine the change must have started during the 2003 calendar year) ES-165 Herb Ellis.

Phil

[lawson-stone]

I have a 1989 ES-175 and a 2003 ES-165, and here are the notable differences:
Other than the pick-ups and controls, here is what I noted:


The ES-165 neck is slightly thicker, wider, and has a bigger heel that blends in to the neck further up towards the peghead.
The peghead of the ES-165 is slightly narrower and the tips are not a pointy as the ES-175
The ES-165 body is 1/4" thinner than the ES-175, and the cutaway on the ES-156 has a slightly bigger radius, about 1/4".
The pick guard on the ES-165 is slightly different shape, but the same length.

Both have two braces under the top, and although both tops are maple laminates, the ES-165 has flamed maple veneer.
The ES-175, made in Bozeman, has laminated Mahogany sides and back, the ES-165, made in Memphis, has flames maple sides and back(laminated).
The ES-175 has a TOM bridge, while the ES-165 has an ABR bridge with the wire. The tailpiece is similar to early ES-175s on the ES-165 (Zig Zag wire)
Tuners are sealed Grovers on the ES-165, ES- 175 has Kluson Deluxe.

The ES-175D is definitely heavier than the ES-165 Herb Ellis, as it is a 2003 model with a floating mini humbucker.

So the ES-165 is really not a single pick-up version of the early model of the ES-175, as they have slightly different body and neck dimensions.
This then does point to it being a special version, most likely to Herb Ellis' specifications.

Interestingly, the ES-165 has a clearer and louder voice played unplugged with the same strings on both guitars. This could be the thicker top on the ES-175, and it being fitted with two humbuckers. Plugged in, the ES-175D has warmer, fuller sound, while the ES-165 has more definition and clarity with additional overtones. I did add a .022uF cap and 500K audio taper pot under the pick guard for tone control to the ES-165 to tame the bright floating mini humbucker (BJB?) The ES-165 can crossover to classic rock, surf, and country a little better than the ES-175D, but is not as feedback resistant in loud venues. Over-all, it is hard to say which one I like best, other than the Herb Ellis having much nicer wood/cosmetics.

There were two "generations" of the ES165. The earlier one really was basically a single pickup ES175 and was labeled the "Herb Ellis" model. I owned one and adored it. Fabulous guitar. The second generation had the floater.

[Gustavo Eiriz]

Was there a single pickup L4Ces ever made? Interesting to hear it.

One single pickup guitars sounds far different than the same with two, not sure how much is the top vibrating or the lack of magnetic pull which makes it different. I like the dynamic range of 1 pickup, it is brigther but you roll off with the tone and you get the best of 2 worlds. Pianissimos are very quite and Fortissimos can scream. Its a far more expressive instrument, imho.

[Stringswinger]

I owned a late 60's single pickup 175 that was way brighter than a V1 165 that belonged to a student of mine over 20 years ago. I think all of the 165's were built with "heavier" plywood than the 175's of the 50's and 60's. Plus, the 490R potted PUP is warmer than the unpotted early patent sticker or T-top PUPs found in 60's 175's.

I have also played L-4 CES guitars that were closer in tone to an L-5CES than to a 175 (to my ears). And 175's do vary in tone depending on the era of construction and pickups.

I have not spent a lot of time with the V2 165, having only played one in a store. I am not a big fan of having a floating pickup on a laminated archtop as I think some of the acoustic tone is compromised by the top wood choice.

IME, Gibson neck carves can be all over the place. My 63 175 had the thinnest (while still wide) neck that I have ever played while my 2008 175 had a pretty thick neck with the biggest heel that I have ever encountered on any Gibson guitar.

The V1 165's are essentially single PUP 175's from the 90's (when Gibson was no longer making a single PUP 175). They sound different than the earlier single PUP 175's from the 50's, 60's and 70's (which each have distinctly different sounds).

Bottom line is that one has to judge each 165 or 175 on it's own merits. L-4CES and 775's (not to mention late 70's 175's with the CC PUP or thinline construction also are out there for one's consideration). There are a lot of choices without clear answers to the question posed by the OP.

[jaymen]

Sounds like the one thing that is consistent is Gibsons inconsistency when it comes to the 175. I'm guessing the Norlin era, and the shift from Kalamazoo, to Nashville, to Bozeman and to Memphis surely had something to do with it, plus they were never made in large numbers compared to other models.
FWIW, I think we are lucky to have the 175 and 165, as they are now no longer being produced.

Although my v2 2003 ES-165 came with 10s, the bridge was intonated for a wound G string, indicating it was set up for 11s or bigger.
It does sound much better for Jazz with medium light to medium strings. In fact, going to a bigger gauge also made me reconsider swapping the BJB for a Kent Armstrong; the bigger strings saved me the hassle. Adding the tone control really helped too. The v1 has the tone control, plus a fatter full sized humbucker, so the v2 needs a little help, but sounds great if you are willing to put in some effort. I do love the sound of my ES-175D using just the neck pick-up, it's so rich. However, the ES-165 Herbie v2, once you dial it in to your liking, is not only lighter, but over all it is more articulate and lively, it sounds more natural and the harmonic overtones are wonderful.

I assume the ES series laminated maple top does a better job of suppressing feed back when amplified than a more resonant solid spruce top would. I have seen the inside an L-5CES with two humbuckers and was surprised that the inside of the top was flat as a board, and not carved. It was explained to me this was to suppress feedback by making the top extra thick.

One final thought: The earlier v1 (1991-2002) Herb Ellis ES-165 did have nicer shading on the burst, plus a full sized humbucker with both controls. The later v2 versions (2003-5?)
had as a plus: the nicer peghead veneer with pearl inlaid crown and Gibson logo. This was contrasted with a smaller floating mini bucker with a single pickguard mounted volume control. So in my minds eye, a v1 with the later peghead veneer would be much more attractive, and have the more desired sound/tone.