Seven strings vs baritones vs tuning down

[porter.fitch]

Hey, all. I've been diving into lower tunings over the past couple of years, getting a baritone and then a 7 string. Recently, though, I've been finding myself most drawn to playing a "normal" guitar tuned down a minor 3rd. Obviously, the 7 has the widest range and palate of voicings, while the baritone offers the same low register with a more familiar feel. The Db guitar splits the difference nicely between baritone and standard tuning. But they all transpose differently! I'm feeling pulled in multiple directions, and I'm hoping that hearing some other folks' paths will clarify my thinking.

I know that Jim Soloway, whose posts about low tunings have been very instructive, has followed a similar trajectory from seven to a low-tuned six, and Ted Greene owned a 7 string but played down-tuned Guilds and Teles. What about yall? For those of you who play 7s, do you miss anything about 6? For those of you who tried it and gave it up, what was your pro/ con calculus? How much of the 7 string vibe do you feel like you can get from tuning down?

[Jimmy blue note]

I first started my own 7 string playing with a 6 string tuned down a 4th. It was with a double cutaway semi hollowbody so I didn't feel any loss of range on the upper end. At first it was a little disorienting but when I put a thin strip of tape on the side of the neck binding and drew in new dot markers with the low E would be on the 5th fret, I had a "normal" guitar (beginning at the 5th fret) and lower range below that. That made it really easy. And although I was playing everything I previously played, I had a lower range available especially when I was playing guitar duo, or with a vocalist or horn player. And it felt like the guitar I was familiar with. I was playing a regular duo gig with Mick Goodrick at the time and he did the exact same thing when he was playing a lot of guitar duos. He had an Epi Sheridan tuned down a 4th when he was working in small group situations.

It became a evident to me that playing a 7 string with a low B was very much like that, the 5th fret feeling very familiar in the bass like a standard tuned guitar. The great revelation came when I realized that for the bass notes, 5th fret felt like the low end of standard tuning while the trebles are familiar guitar territory for my fingers, and any time I was playing, in situations where I needed to shift lower for the bass, the string was right there in the same position.

I do tend to favour guitars with a longer scale and a while back I found a tele 7 string with a longer (bari?) scale. That has a BIG low end sound.

No, I don't miss anything about playing a 6. I have the instruments I need. I'm not tempted by GAS and when I pick up a 6 string now, it feels like a big ukelele with the bottom end missing.
Honestly, it doesn't feel like a lower end extension; it just feels like the way it should be. I play the music that comes to me and that includes a fingerboard range that spans 2 1/2 octaves easily.

[sully75]

7 string mostly prevents you from doing thumb chords (holding an e string bass note with your thumb). Unless you have monster thumbs.

I like to play and make Selmer guitars but that sort of chording is fundamental to gypsy music so, probably no 7 string there.

6 strings tuned down seem to sound a lot different to me then regular tuning for the same notes but I don't have a ton of experience. It's easy to try (having a cheap squier around is fun for things like that).

I really like Joey Landreth's open C tuning, if I am going to have another guitar tuned down I'd like to invest in that. I built a crazy 7 string classical and had a hard time selling it so now I'm just learning to play it. I really like it for playing solo guitar but I'm not proficient at it.

[porter.fitch]

I first started my own 7 string playing with a 6 string tuned down a 4th. It was with a double cutaway semi hollowbody so I didn't feel any loss of range on the upper end. At first it was a little disorienting but when I put a thin strip of tape on the side of the neck binding and drew in new dot markers with the low E would be on the 5th fret, I had a "normal" guitar (beginning at the 5th fret) and lower range below that. That made it really easy. And although I was playing everything I previously played, I had a lower range available especially when I was playing guitar duo, or with a vocalist or horn player. And it felt like the guitar I was familiar with. I was playing a regular duo gig with Mick Goodrick at the time and he did the exact same thing when he was playing a lot of guitar duos. He had an Epi Sheridan tuned down a 4th when he was working in small group situations.

It became a evident to me that playing a 7 string with a low B was very much like that, the 5th fret feeling very familiar in the bass like a standard tuned guitar. The great revelation came when I realized that for the bass notes, 5th fret felt like the low end of standard tuning while the trebles are familiar guitar territory for my fingers, and any time I was playing, in situations where I needed to shift lower for the bass, the string was right there in the same position.

I do tend to favour guitars with a longer scale and a while back I found a tele 7 string with a longer (bari?) scale. That has a BIG low end sound.

No, I don't miss anything about playing a 6. I have the instruments I need. I'm not tempted by GAS and when I pick up a 6 string now, it feels like a big ukelele with the bottom end missing.
Honestly, it doesn't feel like a lower end extension; it just feels like the way it should be. I play the music that comes to me and that includes a fingerboard range that spans 2 1/2 octaves easily.

That's interesting, re: Mick Goodrick. Do you know if he ever recorded in that lower tuning?
Moving the dots in baritone tuning is a cool idea. I know horn players deal with transposing as a fact of life, but I find myself missing the simplicity of living in concert pitch, and that could be a good solution.

7 string mostly prevents you from doing thumb chords (holding an e string bass note with your thumb). Unless you have monster thumbs.

I like to play and make Selmer guitars but that sort of chording is fundamental to gypsy music so, probably no 7 string there.

6 strings tuned down seem to sound a lot different to me then regular tuning for the same notes but I don't have a ton of experience. It's easy to try (having a cheap squier around is fun for things like that).

I really like Joey Landreth's open C tuning, if I am going to have another guitar tuned down I'd like to invest in that. I built a crazy 7 string classical and had a hard time selling it so now I'm just learning to play it. I really like it for playing solo guitar but I'm not proficient at it.

His C tuning is CGCEGC, right? So Vastopol (DADF#AD) down a whole step. I bet that opens up a lot of cool voicings. That's an attractive range, too-- low enough to feel different, but not too low.

[Jimmy blue note]

That's interesting, re: Mick Goodrick. Do you know if he ever recorded in that lower tuning?
.

I know he used that guitar for many years when he performed duo with Randy Roos. Randy has released some of that live duo work. He also used to perform a lot with Pat Metheny but which guitar he used, I don't know.

[sully75]

That's interesting, re: Mick Goodrick. Do you know if he ever recorded in that lower tuning?
Moving the dots in baritone tuning is a cool idea. I know horn players deal with transposing as a fact of life, but I find myself missing the simplicity of living in concert pitch, and that could be a good solution.



His C tuning is CGCEGC, right? So Vastopol (DADF#AD) down a whole step. I bet that opens up a lot of cool voicings. That's an attractive range, too-- low enough to feel different, but not too low.

Yeah. I mean it doesn't hurt that he's just an outstanding musician but he shows you can do a lot with it. He plays Bach and jazz in the tuning, AFAIK it's the only tuning he uses. He can play Lowell George slide stuff on it and whatever else he wants. Acoustic and Electric. He is an impressive musician and very very soulful.

I tried it for a bit but jazz is hard enough right now. I would definitely go back to it though. I could see playing 7 string standard tuning but for a low tuning that open C is hard to beat.

[Rustic]

All interesting concepts, especially for me a former (and sometimes gigging) bassist! Bottom line, go for a 7 and be done with it. I tune the low string to B so the bottom matches a 5 string bass. It is perfect for piano or guitar duo, for accompanying a singer, etc. If I'm playing with a big band, I just use a 6 string because the last thing they need, with trombones, etc, is low notes from me.

In the acoustic realm, for a while I had a Santa Cruz Baritone and although it had the best tone I ran across, it ultimately disappointed me with it's muddiness and I sold it. Since then I've been hoping to come across a great 7 steel string guitar, but they are rare. Until I find that, my Goodall Jumbo is tuned down a minor third and it works OK, but I miss the chordal options on the higher strings.

7 string is the perfect combination of tone, familiarity, and chordal playing range.

[sully75]

This is the 7 string I made. I had a hard time finding someone to buy it so recently I decided to keep it and learn to play it. I've been really enjoying pulling the low string and making that B sound. That's mostly as far as I've gotten.

I did find a guy in the back of a bar in Brooklyn who played the F out of it. Most people I hand it to are utterly perplexed.
Just a moment...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Rustic is on the money! I drop tuned my 6s for 30+ years, mostly just the E to D or C. I got mixed impressions from the 7s I heard over the years, mostly (I realize now) because they were set up and amplified to put out a thumping bass that isn't what a guitar sounds like. But when I tried a good 7 in the early '90s, I knew it was what I wanted. For me, the secret is that all 7 strings have to have the same tonal quality - the 7th has to be just another string, not a faux bass. The amp and speaker are critical. Open back cabs are usually too flabby in the low bass, and the blackface scoop is death to the 7th. It takes a well controlled speaker to do this right. Once I figured that out, i switched completely and with love.

I don't like baritone guitars because I've never heard one that sounds like a good jazz guitar in the upper register. For me, an "extended range guitar" has to be exactly that - a fine guitar with an extra half octave on the bottom that's well integrated sonically. String definition has to be excellent all the way down, which leaves out many otherwise fine guitars and even more amplifiers and speakers. But when it's right, it's a rich and wonderful sound. I've never gotten or heard this from a drop tuned guitar or a baritone.

I just threw this together while practicing this afternoon to demonstrate how a 7 should sound (at least IMO). Ignore the musicality or lack of same. I was trying to run up and down the board to show how well integrated the low A is with the rest of the strings. Even with close harmonies in the lowest octave, the notes are there and there's no tubbiness or flab in the bass. Even when playing in the same octave as the bass (which is generally to be avoided), the guitar's tone and articulation are quite different from the bass. I chose this backing track to try to demonstrate that.

Chords sound right even on the bottom 2 or 3 strings, and subtle inversions are preserved. This is the early production (and possibly prototype - it was originally Jeff Hale's) 7 string El Rey that I finally got from Rustic after years of hoping, played through a BAM200 and Toob Metro BG+ (an amazingly great excellent speaker for a 7). The EQ is flat and there is no processing of any kind - not even reverb.

[GuyBoden]

Allan Holdsworth playing the custom Bill DeLap 38 inch hollow body baritone. live at The Ark in Annarbor, Michigan on 9/16/92. (Terrible quality video, but a unique piece of history.)

[Rustic]

Wow, that's some great 7 string playing Maestro!

[Zigracer]

I agree with what nevershouldhavesoldit said. BTW, phenomenal playing, David! Additionally, MHO is that the range of the 7 string within one chord generally can't be matched by either tuning down or with a baritone. The sound is so lush because of the range. Seems to really be good for some chromatic bass walking, while retaining the standard guitar voicing.

I will say that there is certainly a place for both tuning down as well as baritone guitars. I used to play in a pop/rock duo - two guitars and two voices. We used to cover some tunes like Rock This Town, where my bandmate would tune the low E string to a D to get that prominent bass line while I handled the Gretsch electric duties. We were talking about a baritone guitar for that application. I currently play a solo pop and rock show where I'll fingerpick an acoustic version of Heart of the Matter on the acoustic flat top. I detune the guitar to D for that because I think the way the low D rings out for that solo application is very pleasing.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

6 strings tuned down seem to sound a lot different to me then regular tuning for the same notes

That’s because they do. A guitar is designed to play through a specified range (82 to 400+ Hz for a standard tuning 6 string). Scale length and string gauge are the main determinants of string tension at pitch. When you detune, you reduce string tension - but the nut-to-saddle scale length remains standard along with fret spacing.

Detuning changes string tension and shifts all fretted notes up the fingerboard where frets are closer together. G at the 3rd fret on E1 in standard tuning becomes a G at the 5th fret when all strings are detuned by a whole tone. So the vibrating string length is shorter and the tension is lower to produce the same note. Intonation will be off a little, which will be exaggerated by any imprecision in fretting because the strings are under less tension and more easily shifted.

These changes also alter the resonances and harmonic structure of each string. So the natural harmonic richness of a guitar in standard tune can be weakened by changing the simple harmonic structure of the strings with reduced tension and altered length from fret to saddle. The mechanics and physics are different, so the sound is different - no surprise there. This can really affect a carefully carved, braced, and tuned solid top because you’re changing the playing parameters from the ones the luthier used to make the guitar.

These problems don’t exist with a 7. Instead, you get another string with properly configured positions for bass notes further up the neck. If you listen closely to my little demo track, you’ll hear the same notes played on the 6th or the 7th, eg some 10th fret Gs on the 7th and some 3rd fret Gs on the 6th. The same notes on the 2 strings sustain about the same and sound remarkably similar, even through the little 6,5” Toob speaker. This is because the guitar was designed to play this way.

The 7 isn’t only for lower bass. You have the 7th string available to add bass notes you’d couldn’t use with chords more than 7 frets above the nut on a 6. So you have far more options for inversions, bass leading, etc. You also have the option to play single note lines across more strings. Even better, there’s a full 4+ octave range available from open low A to at and above the 7th fret on E1 - with scale length, fret spacing, and string gauge all designed together for best sound and playability.

[EllenGtrGrl]

Ive gone all 3 routes:

6-string tuned down - I used to tune to Drop C (yes I come from a bit of a metal background [despite playing in the college jazz band] and liked that tuning). Nowadays I tune to Concert D because I like the darker sound I get, and it works well for playing with the pianist/music director at a local Catholic church where I have my (sort of) weekly gig on acoustic guitar.

Baritone - fun guitars to play, but I didn't like the loss of of the upper register/notes due to the physical characteristics of the baritone guitar. As it is, I really couldn't get one if I wanted to, due to my nickel and chromium allergies - you can only get nickel and stainless steel strings for baritone guitars.

7-String -I've played 7-strings off and on since 2008. I'd LOVE to get another one (I had to sell the ones I had due to money crunches, and the fact that I didn't like their necks). They're fun to play, and they have a nice, wide tonal register you can work with (the only thing wider register-wise are 8 and 9-string guitars, but due to string choices those are a no go for me). A bonus for me, is that I can get Ernie Ball Cobalt 7-string sets (they're hypoallergenic - you can also get Cobalt wound 3rds, which I buy).

BUT, I've gotten picky about 7-strings. I do not like the thin necks most of them have (which are OK of you play with your thumb sticking above or hanging over the neck, but not so good if you play classical style/thumb behind the neck like I do). Also, I'd REALLY like to have a hollow or semi-hollow 7-string. I briefly had to a couple of semi-hollow Schecter Jazz 7s, which in both cases I ended up having to sell due to being broke and needing the money. Their necks fit the bill for me, and they sounded great. Unfortunately, they're pretty rare - they were only made in 2000 and 2001. Still, I keep an eye out on Reverb for another one. Eastman makes a 7-string that would fit my needs (and having had Eastmans, I can say that I LOVE Eastman necks), but they are a bit pricey for me at the present time. I also recently discovered a semi-local luthier (via Reverb), who also makes 7-string archtops (I asked him if he knew, or knew about my grandfather, who was a luthier - he didn't), who told me he could make me one - same thing as Eastmans, a bit pricey for me, though I guess I could "rob Peter to pay Paul" by doing a withdrawl from my rather substantial 401K to pay for one (I'm older than 59 1/2 so there would be no penalty for early withdrawl). There are also the Ibanez AF207 and AAF207 (like the Schecter Jazz 7, not very common, and very pricey, but I've read good things about them), and the semi-common Ibanez AF957 (I have mixed feelings about them - I considered buying one when they were still being sold as new, but I've read more than a few mixed reviews about them).

My 2nd and Last Schecter Jazz 7 on the day it was delivered to me at work - I wish I still had it

[Gitterbug]

This is off-topic, an probably has been discussed a nauseam before I was born 79 years ago. I've been wondering why jazz guitarists don't tune a full step down. Eb is such a common jazz key, which could then be addressed from the 1st fret position. F and Bb would be where G and C are now. Not a huge change along the fretboard.

[Jimmy blue note]

This is off-topic, an probably has been discussed a nauseam before I was born 79 years ago. I've been wondering why jazz guitarists don't tune a full step down. Eb is such a common jazz key, which could then be addressed from the 1st fret position. F and Bb would be where G and C are now. Not a huge change along the fretboard.

When the guitar is tuned primarily in 4ths, it affords the flexibility of playing harmony based on 3rds (western classical and folk) and a scale that puts a complete scale within reach of a fretspan of the hand.
That means that the guitar has an inherent instability of open strings (it's tuned in 4ths, stable harmony is built on 3rds and 5ths... in general).
So the standard tuning isn't really in E, but it does have an accessible fingering convenience with open strings in the keys of G and C, so we have a tuning that has shapes that are easy, full and convenient for "cowboy chords" and some keys that literally resonate with the open strings inherent in that configuration.
Of course one can play any key "open" with a capo.
Most jazz players don't really use open strings a lot, but if you wanted convenience in Eb, you could re-tune your guitar to an open tuning like Eb Bb Eb Ab Bb Eb (which is a transposition of DADGAD, and play with that. Have you tried that?

Another reason standard tuning is used so widely is a tradition of that tuning that is the foundation of classical guitar, the written tradition and the entire literary pedantic system that is deeply founded in standard tuning based on a 6 string tuned to E.

Jazz is a music that modulates so freely, embraces chromaticism and has movable fingering patterns and structures that rely on the ostensible instability of standard tuning, and it serves players well to have a flexibility that isn't dependent on the open 6 string. Jazz players may play a lot of tunes in Eb but the necessity to play the movable grid is what makes the instrument useful for the music, not the presence of an open string that might work well with a few select tunes.

From your question and the perspective it comes from, I'd suggest you experiment with an open tuning and a capo. I'd love to hear what you can do with it! It's also the tradition of jazz not to be bound by tradition. Go for it!

[porter.fitch]

Rustic is on the money! I drop tuned my 6s for 30+ years, mostly just the E to D or C. I got mixed impressions from the 7s I heard over the years, mostly (I realize now) because they were set up and amplified to put out a thumping bass that isn't what a guitar sounds like. But when I tried a good 7 in the early '90s, I knew it was what I wanted. For me, the secret is that all 7 strings have to have the same tonal quality - the 7th has to be just another string, not a faux bass. The amp and speaker are critical. Open back cabs are usually too flabby in the low bass, and the blackface scoop is death to the 7th. It takes a well controlled speaker to do this right. Once I figured that out, i switched completely and with love.

I don't like baritone guitars because I've never heard one that sounds like a good jazz guitar in the upper register. For me, an "extended range guitar" has to be exactly that - a fine guitar with an extra half octave on the bottom that's well integrated sonically. String definition has to be excellent all the way down, which leaves out many otherwise fine guitars and even more amplifiers and speakers. But when it's right, it's a rich and wonderful sound. I've never gotten or heard this from a drop tuned guitar or a baritone.

I just threw this together while practicing this afternoon to demonstrate how a 7 should sound (at least IMO). Ignore the musicality or lack of same. I was trying to run up and down the board to show how well integrated the low A is with the rest of the strings. Even with close harmonies in the lowest octave, the notes are there and there's no tubbiness or flab in the bass. Even when playing in the same octave as the bass (which is generally to be avoided), the guitar's tone and articulation are quite different from the bass. I chose this backing track to try to demonstrate that.

Chords sound right even on the bottom 2 or 3 strings, and subtle inversions are preserved. This is the early production (and possibly prototype - it was originally Jeff Hale's) 7 string El Rey that I finally got from Rustic after years of hoping, played through a BAM200 and Toob Metro BG+ (an amazingly great excellent speaker for a 7). The EQ is flat and there is no processing of any kind - not even reverb.

What scale length/ string gauges are you running?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

What scale length/ string gauges are you running?

Eastman 7s all have a 25” scale. I use TI JS113s on my 16” and 17” and GB112s or JS112s on the El Rey, depending on which I have on hand (since I buy strings whenever I come across a serious sale). I prefer the slightly smoother sound and feel of the GBs to the JSs, if I have a choice - but if the price is right, either will do nicely. I get at least a year from the wound strings in either set. The 7th is an 0.075” Chrome on all. Once the plains get a few months on them, I use 13 & 17 plain steels with 113s and 114s and 11 & 15 plains with the 112s.

I use GB114s on my laminated 16” Ibanez archtop 7 with a 24 3/4” scale (AF207). The thick poly coated ply top needs the heavy Bensons to wake it up.

[porter.fitch]

That’s because they do. A guitar is designed to play through a specified range (82 to 400+ Hz for a standard tuning 6 string). Scale length and string gauge are the main determinants of string tension at pitch. When you detune, you reduce string tension - but the nut-to-saddle scale length remains standard along with fret spacing.

Detuning changes string tension and shifts all fretted notes up the fingerboard where frets are closer together. G at the 3rd fret on E1 in standard tuning becomes a G at the 5th fret when all strings are detuned by a whole tone. So the vibrating string length is shorter and the tension is lower to produce the same note. Intonation will be off a little, which will be exaggerated by any imprecision in fretting because the strings are under less tension and more easily shifted.

These changes also alter the resonances and harmonic structure of each string. So the natural harmonic richness of a guitar in standard tune can be weakened by changing the simple harmonic structure of the strings with reduced tension and altered length from fret to saddle. The mechanics and physics are different, so the sound is different - no surprise there. This can really affect a carefully carved, braced, and tuned solid top because you’re changing the playing parameters from the ones the luthier used to make the guitar.

These problems don’t exist with a 7. Instead, you get another string with properly configured positions for bass notes further up the neck. If you listen closely to my little demo track, you’ll hear the same notes played on the 6th or the 7th, eg some 10th fret Gs on the 7th and some 3rd fret Gs on the 6th. The same notes on the 2 strings sustain about the same and sound remarkably similar, even through the little 6,5” Toob speaker. This is because the guitar was designed to play this way.

The 7 isn’t only for lower bass. You have the 7th string available to add bass notes you’d couldn’t use with chords more than 7 frets above the nut on a 6. So you have far more options for inversions, bass leading, etc. You also have the option to play single note lines across more strings. Even better, there’s a full 4+ octave range available from open low A to at and above the 7th fret on E1 - with scale length, fret spacing, and string gauge all designed together for best sound and playability.

"When you detune" are the operative words here. Given the right string gauges and scale length, you can get a good low note, regardless of number of strings. On an electric guitar, I don't think there's anything intrinsically different about a low A on a 7 string and a 6 string, all other things being equal.

Agreed about the other benefits, though-- wider range of voicings and increased availability of bass notes are pluses. A lower tuned 6 string requires more shifting, and is limited to 2 octaves and a 3rd in given position, but is more physically familiar coming from a 6 string.