A bit frustrated - need suggestions on a new cheap/mid-level jazz box

[Tim Clark]

I bought a new Guild T-50 a couple of years ago for $1,100 from Sweetwater. It's basically an ES125 copy, a very nice guitar. Now Sweetwater is selling them for $850 new.

[Mick-7]

The 503 is a carved guitar while the 480 is all laminate. OP said it is a laminate he is looking for.

Specs say:
Top Material: Sitka Spruce
Body Material: Laminate Maple

Does a solid top on a laminated body sound much different than an all laminate body? The all-laminate maple guitars cost only 25% less than the 503 solid top/laminate body model, but it only has 1 pickup vs 2 on the all-laminate models.

Cunamara your thoughts on the brightness of the AR372 are interesting.When I tried one, you couldn't deny it's much brighter than most. It's not a tone knob thing, it's in its DNA and you can't remove it. If you roll the tone knob too low, the sound becomes dull, not the "smokey" Metheny kind of sound.

A comparatively brighter tone is a hallmark of all maple guitars (like the AR372), isn't it?

[Jx30510]

Yes. But Eastman's are brighter sounding guitars in my experience. Often maple necks, and the lighter construction.
A bit off subject (well completely), but I have an Eastman Juliet Humbucker with Bibsby, and that guitar is SO warm, and has one of the best jazz tones I've ever had . Also very light.
Eastman's aren't always bright. I suggest to try one out

[Mick-7]

I bought a new Guild T-50 a couple of years ago for $1,100 from Sweetwater. It's basically an ES125 copy, a very nice guitar. Now Sweetwater is selling them for $850 new.

It was on the "Top 25 archtops 2025" list that I shared earlier, not a cutaway though.

This was the other Guild on the list, but you wouldn't know from the picture that it's a hollow-body -- Guild M-75 Aristocrat Hollowbody Electric Guitar

A "solid spruce top" for that price? That's amazing.

[PMB]

PMB, really enjoying that " casual duo jam" of your student
Reminds me of "Rene Thomas in Paris" mood.

Well spotted. He's a big Jimmy Raney fan and Raney was a huge influence on Rene Thomas.

[Jx30510]

So I have to listen to Jimmy Raney ! I don't know this guitarist that much at all. I must have an LP of him in my collection I bought a very long time ago..

[GuitarJay]

You might keep your eyes out for a used Guild X-170 Manhattan. I know you prefer new, but I thought I'd bring it up anyway. Made in USA, plays and sounds like a classic electric jazz box, and can be had used for $1500 or less. I picked one up not too long ago for less, and it was in near mint condition, blond, with beautifully flamed maple.

[58flame]

Used USA Guild x-150, x-175, or X-170 will all fall in your price range. All are better than the 165 in my opinion. Watch the nut width and the neck angle (x-150, x-170).

[AllanAllen]

The OP wants an archtop at $1500 or less. Why are we doing gymnastics to not answer the question?

Because they don't know what they like, they just know what they don't like and only an ES-165 will do, except they didn't like the one they had.

Honestly, this thread should be ignored and OP should go play some guitars at a store and buy what they like.

[lammie200]

I have both models of ES-165s. Great guitars. Only problem was a dirty pot on one. Both are near mint. For all I know the same team of people could have built both. 6-7 years ago they were $1800-$1900 each. I don’t know what you would get for $1500 nowadays as far as 165s go. Both play like good Gibsons. Pro grade. I used to have a ES-175 Charlie Christian. Honestly at least a step down from the ES-165 in all aspects. And if you don’t know what 60hz hum is, and want to know, play a ES-175 CC.

Like others have said I would consider a Guild. I have had both the Korean-made Savoy 150 and X-175 Manhattan. I have had other Korean (Peerless Monarch and Jazz City) and Chinese (Hagstrom HJ-800) archtops. The Guilds were loads better in every aspect. Design, construction, sound, playability, etc. If I didn’t stumble upon the ES-165s I would have been perfectly happy keeping the Guilds. They can probably be had much less than $1500 nowadays I would think.

[garybaldy]

If in the OP's position, I'd go with either an Epi 175 Premium or a Peerless Gigmaster Jazz.
George Hess uses the Gigmaster and it sounds very thunky.

[BreckerFan]

I'll also add my recommendation for a Guild, particularly the 90s/early 2000s Westerly made ones. I have an X-150, fantastic laminate, 16 inch, single humbucker archtop. I bought mine for $1300, prices on reverb are currently around $1600 but I bet with some looking/an offer you could hit $1500.

[omphalopsychos]

Buy a telecaster. Get good at Jazz. Then you’ll be happy with any archtop (or non at all).

[jim777]

I have a '78 Ibanez FA-100 and it's fantastic. Only change I've made was to replace the pots when they died. I would look at the older Japanese copies and see what's around - Tokai, Greco and Ibanez made some wonderful guitars if you can live without the G word on the headstock. There are a number of Greco 175s (look for Greco FA) on Reverb now that will get you where you want to go for less than your $1500.

[nyc chaz]

I have a really hard time with the used Gibson prices. that have gone totally crazy since the last few years. Ok, Gibson are iconic and all that, but the OP's experience proves that it's also the brand with which you can encounter the worst problems. That's my experience too.
To keep him trying to save the money, and get an ES165, because " only Gibson is good enough..."
No, A lot of brands are as good as or better than Gibsons at lower costs. Gibsons aren't better, they're just different. Or the other way around..

I'm exactly in his case, searching for the same thing. After a month or two, the EASTMAN AR 480 Pisano model is the one I want, but I can't find it anywhere.
The P90 AR372 looks very nice, but I fear it to be too bright.

The Crossroad Vanguard has one HB and solid top.. but that brand gets me a bit nervous for some reason (the scarfed joint neck looks cheap)


The other ones that must be nice, without too much risk

* Ibanez LGB30. Dislike the tailpiece on that one but it's an easy fix
* Used Eastman AR580 or AR503
But they're solid top

There are eight 480's for sale on Reverb or did you mean you can't find one to try in your local shop?

[Cunamara]

Entirely possible that the AR371 of "a few" years ago (which is probably 10 or 15) and the current AR372 are somewhat different in terms of the resonance of the instrument. Certainly a 1 pickup ES-175 and then otherwise identical 2 pickup ES-175 will sound notably different just because of the extra mass of the second pickup attached to the top. I did not experience the Eastman as overly bright, even when I tried it through a DI into a powered speaker. But, as noted, overly bright is in the ear of the beholder.

A couple of years ago I bought a Gibson ES 175 and it too is a guitar that always wants to be a little bright.


As far as Pat Metheny's "dark and smoky" tone goes, I don't hear him as dark and smoky at all. On most of the recordings he's bright and upper midrangey but with the highest audible frequencies rounded off. On some recordings, his tone is frankly just dull to my ear, although someone else might hear it as "dark and smoky."

While many of us are enamored of that dark blanket-over-the-amp sound, if you're playing a gig that tone often sucks for the audience because they can barely hear you amidst drums, horns, keyboard, bass, etc. (No audience has ever complained about not being able to hear me ). You need upper mid range and high frequencies to be able to be heard in the mix. I am not sure how this dark tone thing ever came about (and I fall prey to it all the time myself, but I am gradually getting more realistic about how much brightness the guitar sound really needs to contribute to the music); if you listen to Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Django, Tal Farlow, Jimmy Rainey, Chuck Wayne, Johnny Smith, Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Peter Bernstein- all of those players had/have a bright tone. On the other hand, Pasquale Grasso has to my ear a very dull tone that does not serve to present his profound musical abilities in the best way; It's like he just rolled the tone knob all the way off and left it there.

[rpjazzguitar]

If I was looking for a new guitar, the first question I would have is this: "How will the neck feel in my hand?" The second question might be "how does it feel to hold the guitar?". If a guitar passes those two tests, then I get interested in things like how it sounds and I know from experience that I have to live with a guitar for a while, in different playing situations, before my opinion crystallizes.

So, how can anybody make a recommendation?

[Mick-7]

Guys, the op has said more than once that there are no large retail music stores near him, therefore he wants to buy new so he can play the guitar for a while, decide if he wants to keep it and, if necessary, return it without a hassle.

Guitar Center/Musicians Friend does have a 30 day return policy on used instruments, but as far as I know, such an extended return period policy is uncommon. If anyone knows of other companies with extended return policies on used instruments, please name them.

[Freddels]

Sweetwater also has a good return policy.

[Sam Sherry]

So I have to listen to Jimmy Raney !

Not just the Raneys but Michael Moore and Billy Hart. What an inspiring side!

[Lkdog]

A lot of good suggestions here.
If you are not set on a laminate you have more options.

Take your time- the hollowbody market is a buyers market.

[chris32895]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone

[MikeTT]

Check the Guild CE-100. Not vintage, these are probably over your budget, but they did reissues for a few years (Korean made, I think), I think they recently stopped them. Should be under 1000$. I played a reissue in a store a few years ago and found it really really good. Good luck!

[skykomishone]

Chris32895,
I'm a big fan of the Pisano Eastman's. Even though I sold the one I owned, it wasn't because I didn't enjoy the guitar, or that it lacked in any major way the qualities that I would expect from an archtop. It was sold in exchange for the equivalent value of a series of lessons from a notable player and excellent musician which extended over a year of private instruction.
The guitar wasn't 'bright'.
It's a great guitar.
Also, I know language evolves. I've always referred to archtop guitars as archtops, because that's what they are. Box guitars typically don't have arches. If you want a new 'Box', the Pisano probably isn't for you. Maybe this...

[Llewlyn]

Chris,

Among those you listed I would personally go for the Eastman. I wouldn't mind the too bright tone, which can in case be tamed with proper flatwounds / rolling off tone / amp.

Ll.