Good idea or a solution in need of a problem?

[Oscar67]

My idea of good jazz guitar tone is clear, lively well-defined wound string notes and warm, fat plain string notes. Just rolling back the tone control until the plain strings sound warm won’t do it for me because it muddles the bass notes too much. It’s a compromise. So I was thinking: a Fender P-bass pickup is really two separate, partial pickups and their signal is then combined. Why not do something like that for jazz guitar? Two partial pickups, one for the wound strings and one for the treble strings, each with its own volume and tone controls and then a master volume before it hits the output jack. And every humbucker is made of two separate pickups, by necessity. It seems easy to do.

I’d certainly try a guitar that has this, but as far as I know it’s never been done so I guess I’m fabricating solutions in need of a problem. Oh well…

[oldane]

Clear highs and muddy lows is a caracteristic of some (not all) humbuckers. Single coil PUs usually have clearer lows and better note separation, so if you can live with the added hum, you could try that first - either a P90 clone or some CC type. They are available in standard humbucker mount from many manufacturers, so they are easy to drop in.

[jads57]

I believe G&L Guitars has a Z Coil pickup that is staggered and used in a couple their guitars. But I’m not sure how you could retrofit it on a Humbucker spacing?
Ive found a Lace Sensor Dually Blue and Gold pickup to be a great option. Fits in a normal Humbucking space. And You have 3 options of combining the 2 different Lace p/ups, which are dead quiet.

[Jim Soloway]

There are lots of humbuckers that are designed specifically to reduce the low end and keep it clear. I think those would be a much easier solution. Lollar makes the El Rio. Demarzio has the EJ custom and the humbucker from hell. There are several others that fit the same general description.

[andrew]

Couple of thoughts:

-the potential benefit of having two separate windings is that you could have them RWRP for a hum-cancelling effect. Several people make tele pickups like this. The downside is that if you bend a string and that string goes near the divide (thus being picked up by both coils), it will also be out of phase and get thin. Bending strings isn’t a problem on the P-bass, of course.

-The DeArmond Rhythm Chief employs the concept of “treating the wound strings and the plain strings differently” by having separate windings for them.

-I understand where you’re going with the separate volume controls, but once the balance is set, how often would adjust them? Adjustable pole pieces allow you to set the string to string balance once and then forget it.

[omphalopsychos]

People make these. Look at fender dual mag pickups. I think Ron Ellis does something like this too.

[Woody Sound]

Fender used to have two on their electric 12. I seem to remember it also being on one of the short scale student models, but I can't remember for sure.

[Jabberwocky]

Wouldn't a good Parametric EQ pedal solve the problem?

[jads57]

Attention Required! | Cloudflare Fender Cunife?

[Oscar67]

Fender used to have two on their electric 12. I seem to remember it also being on one of the short scale student models, but I can't remember for sure.

Wow, I’d forgotten all about those! Thanks!

Wouldn't a good Parametric EQ pedal solve the problem?

I use an EQ pedal now and yes, it helps. But it’s not the same as rolling back both the volume and tone controls in a specific way. I just don’t like the muffled blanket tone and prefer the tone control wide open for the wound strings and rolled back for the treble strings. A split pickup with dedicated controls would make it easy.

I understand where you’re going with the separate volume controls, but once the balance is set, how often would adjust them?

A lot! Playing funk with a pick would make me reduce the plain string volume somewhat, just as an example. And if I’m playing a delicate fingerstyle piece where the thumbed bass notes might get too loud, I can easily adjust.

Now just to be clear, my heroes don’t need all this. Joe Pass sounded great. Wes sounded great. Kenny sounded great. George sounded great. Some of them used much heavier strings than I can use. A set of TI 12’s is my upper limit and that’s on a Gibson-scale guitar. Most of my guitars have 11s or 10.5s on them. With the heavier gauges you can dig in some more but I really have to caress the treble strings when using a lighter gauge.

[Bob_Ross]

Bending strings isn’t a problem on the P-bass, of course.

Paul Jackson: "Hold my beer..."

[gianluca]

My idea of good jazz guitar tone is clear, lively well-defined wound string notes and warm, fat plain string notes. Just rolling back the tone control until the plain strings sound warm won’t do it for me because it muddles the bass notes too much. It’s a compromise.

I can get good result with a bright tone (guitar volume and tone all the way up, fender amp flat tone with basses a little back, bright switch on) and the amp volume at 5 to warm up the plains (fender tone masters have the power reduction switch…).
I love George Benson’s tone with his Ibanez GB 200, which is a bright tone guitar…

[pauln]

I can get good result with a bright tone (guitar volume and tone all the way up, fender amp flat tone with basses a little back, bright switch on) and the amp volume at 5 to warm up the plains (fender tone masters have the power reduction switch…).
I love George Benson’s tone with his Ibanez GB 200, which is a bright tone guitar…

Tone Stack Calculator

Take a look at the tone stack calculator - the frequency graph changes as you move the tone controls... lots of fun and insight.

[entresz]

I can relate to this issue. My ES 335 has the MHS pickups, which I understand are a PAF style humbucker.
Sometimes it's difficult getting the high register sounding sweet and not having a muddy bottom end. I can dial in the low end to be clear, but then I'm left with thin/shrill trebles.

With that said it has at times sounded exceptionally good at gigs, it must have been the right room/amp combination. I'll persevere with them for now. This guitar is fairly new to me so I'm not as familiar with it compared to my other instruments, and I'm probably not getting the best out of it just yet.

I replaced humbuckers with Gabojo Lab Dynasonics in another guitar and they've accomplished the clear/not muddy bass and smooth treble brief better than pretty much anything else I've heard.

What is also cool with these, particularly in humbucker mount, is you can get tonal variations by adjusting how high/low the alnico polepieces are in relation to the bobbin of the pickup. I found low poles, with the entire pickup close to the strings has a characteristic 'fat' kind of compressed sound, and lowering the entire body of the pickup and raising the poles gives a twangier/bright sound.

[andrew]

The reasons stated in this thread are precisely why I’m generally more of a fan of single coil pickups than humbuckers. But that being said, my favorite humbucking pickup is the Filtertron. It’s not typically at the top of the list when one thinks of jazz pickups, but it can certainly do the trick with the help of a tone knob. It’s also one of Mark Campellone’s favorites!

[Sabicas]

I have two Fralin p-92s that are humbucker sized noise-cancelling p90s with two 3-string coils in each pickup. I ordered them with 4 conductor wires so I could control the bass and treble strings separately in a stereo guitar build. They are currently sitting in a drawer if you are interested in acquiring them.

[jim777]

I believe G&L Guitars has a Z Coil pickup that is staggered and used in a couple their guitars. But I’m not sure how you could retrofit it on a Humbucker spacing?

G&L has apparently gone out of business, unfortunately.

[58flame]

Rhythm chief.

[Doctor Jeff]

A) Your sound to the crowd will not be the same as your sound to your ears sitting next to the amp. It’s quite possible—likely even—the sound the audience hears will be balanced, warm, not shrill, etc.

B) As said, our heroes made do with regular old pickups and were able to find a way to make it work. The electric guitar introduces a lot of compromises, some of which are advantageous and some of which you just have to recognize and workaround. As an example—I can’t see why those old Charlie Christian-style pickups aren’t muddy as heck with little definition string to string, but they work.

[Doctor Jeff]

Rhythm chief.

Interesting suggestion. They are more microphonic. The top B and E strings are sometimes not balanced—depends a lot on the strings you use.

[58flame]

Interesting suggestion. They are more microphonic. The top B and E strings are sometimes not balanced—depends a lot on the strings you use.

The top 2 strings have their own thing going on in the 1000. No separate vol/tone controls but it's close. I like the 1000 quite a bit. There is a 1000 on my Artist Award and it sounds fantastic.

[entresz]

A) Your sound to the crowd will not be the same as your sound to your ears sitting next to the amp. It’s quite possible—likely even—the sound the audience hears will be balanced, warm, not shrill, etc.

B) As said, our heroes made do with regular old pickups and were able to find a way to make it work. The electric guitar introduces a lot of compromises, some of which are advantageous and some of which you just have to recognize and workaround. As an example—I can’t see why those old Charlie Christian-style pickups aren’t muddy as heck with little definition string to string, but they work.

So true. What we hear as the player vs. what the audience hears are often two different things.

I would say though those old Charlie Christian pickups, with their large diameter wire, are the opposite of muddy. They're actually pretty bright, almost hi-fi sounding. Low strings have a really nice clarity that I'm yet to hear from any regular humbucker.

[AllanAllen]

There are a couple flavors of your solution on the market.

Submarine Pickups

Ubertar Hexaphonic Guitar Pickups - One and Two String Pickups for
guitar and bass

Single Pickup with Cover | Cigar Box Guitar Parts | MGB Guitars & Parts Supplier

[Woody Sound]

Fender Maverick

[Doctor Jeff]

^^That brings to mind the phrase “so ugly it’s cute.”

I wouldn’t mind having a vintage guitar like that.