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(Purely Acoustic, No pickup.)
I've been experimenting with my Acoustic Archtop to get a better sound projection Acoustically with no pickup.
I've found that the acoustic sound is improved without a pickguard.
Also, the guitar sounds better if the back is not against my body and less of the sides are against my body. With less success, I'm trying to keep my arm off the top of the guitar too.
Conclusion:
The pickguard lessens acoustic sound projection, contact with the body lessens (dampens) the acoustic sound.
(These conclusions are only based on my personal very limited experiments.)
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08-02-2025 04:49 AM
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I think Freddie Green came to similar conclusions based on the way he held the guitar.
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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It would be great if you recorded at least a few bars with each of these options using a mic at “front row” distance, so you (and we) could see if we all hear this. I’m often surprised by recordings of my gigs that don’t sound exactly like what I thought I heard while playing. The search for an explanation is often very informative. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
You may have hit on something important. But there are also other variables that might explain what you’re hearing. How are you keeping the guitar away from body contact? If you’re angling the body so it only touches you where the back binding meets your leg and the front of your body, the top is more exposed to your ears and the guitar will sound louder and/or better to you while playing it. Freddie Green held it like this -
[nbevan3, I was writing while you posted
]
Holding your right forearm (or left, if you play left handed) out in front of the guitar and not touching the instrument with your arm at all gives you a bigger stroke that lets you hit the strings harder. It also changes the pick angle relative to the strings. This may explain what you’re hearing. If it’s just the angle of the top, it probably won’t be audible on recordings. But if arm positioning changes your picking, it should be audible on recordings if you use a pick. I don’t have a clue how it might affect fingerstyle playing.
I’ve had a few acoustic archtops that I thought sounded “better” without a guard. My L50 came to me without one. When I put one on, I thought it sounded a little bit less open and resonant, although I never recorded it to see if this was real. I had a ‘34 L5 in college that was pretty worn and came with the usual curly, ratty guard in a bag. Wurlitzer (the biggest dealer in Boston at the time) found a better one in their old parts bin that we tried when I took it there for an estimate of the cost of a refurb by Gibson. Most of us who heard and played it thought the guard cut projection a tiny bit. BTW, Gibson wanted $300 to redo it 60 years ago. I’d have to have given them my 175 to pay for it and I needed the 175 for the weddings & commercial dates I was playing. I couldn’t afford 2 guitars (MIM Fenders weren’t even a gleam in Leo’s eye back then) so I sold the L5.
Whenever I make a change, I wonder and worry a little about the effect it will have. It’s really hard to be objective if you believe there will be a specific effect. Confirmation bias is a killer.
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Interesting. Overlaps some of the discussion in the thread about archtops "opening up with age" and perception of sound. Although I would wager a large piece of plastic blocking an f hole and reflecting, or absorbing(?) sound, results in at least somewhat of a measurable change in projection...but how much to the player vs the listener?
I've been considering adding an L7 style pickguard to my Eastman 805, primarily for the aesthetics, but the tone is fantastic and I hesitate to alter that. Additionally, it introduces more of the A/B comparisons rabbit hole that for me, inevitably hinders productive practice and enjoyable playing with obsessive fiddling....in which eliminating which was the entire point of aquiring an all acoustic.
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James Chirillo talks of this in one of his YT vids. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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In one of his YouTube videos, James Chirillo speculates that a lot of the clubs had low ceilings, and tilting the (acoustic) guitar face up let some of the sound bounce off the ceiling and out to the audience.
From decades of playing only Martin dreads, I can testify that keeping the back of those guitars away from my front allows for more resonance – when you can feel the guitar vibrate against your chest, you know some of that vibration is being dampened by your chest. I have no idea if more vibrations in the back translates to more sound out front.
But as someone who mostly played those dreads standing up (in a higher bluegrass position), it was completely impractical to play them trying to keep the guitar free of my body.
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And in other news, water is wet, and the sky is blue (when clouds don't mask it).
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Yes, I think the clouds are dampening the Blue Sky effect, similar to how a Pickguard dampens the sounds of a guitar. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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I take the pick guards off all my acoustic archtops. I have a pretty light touch so, not a lot of risk.
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In many acoustic guitars the vibrating back generates some of the lower frequencies. Thus, holding the back pressed to your body - like you do when standing up with the guitar on a strap - will dampen some of the lower frequecies. Holding the guitar like Freddie Green did will "free up" those lower frequencies. Another thing is that for my taste, holding the guitar that way is ergonomical when playing 4-to-the-bar rhythm (less so for soloing). When seeing videos with Freddie Green, he actually seems to sit and play quite relaxed as opposed to many players holding the guitar vertically.
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There was a John Pearse armrest for flat tops that would help keep your arm off the top. I thought it worked OK on my Goodall GC.
As for archtops, I will go far for tone but not as far as changing how I hold the guitar. Some things are just too hard.
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Regarding back contact, there’s a device called the “Tone-Gard” which mandolin players use for exactly this reason.
Tone-Gard.com
They seem to make them for guitars.
I use them on my mandolin and mandola when I play standing. Seems to work, but I haven’t made a recording to test.
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I've been holding my guitars at an angle for so long I even do it with solid-bodies without even thinking about it. It doesn't take a lot, certainly not as much as Freddie did, just enough so that the back isn't against my body. I tend to use somewhere in the general vicinity of 45 degrees, just because that's where I find it comfortable. Standing means the back is against my body, and I try to avoid standing for multiple reasons. But circumstances force things upon us sometimes.
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Do you use a pickguard? Originally Posted by sgosnell
Do you rest your arm on top off the guitar?
Both of these also dampen the sound in my opinion.
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I think not damping the back probably makes for more volume than the removal of a pickguard. JMO.
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I put one of these on my flamenco guitar. Can't say for sure that it helps or not.
Amazon.com
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I have a pickguard on some, but not all. I can't hear any real difference in tone or volume with or without one. I mostly do without. My arm touches the edge of the top, but lightly, on some, depending on the depth of the rims, mostly when playing single not lines. I'm certainly not saying anyone else should hold their guitar the way I hold mine, it's just how I do it after decades of doing it, without anyone telling me I should do it differently.
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I think your method is very good for an acoustic archtop with no pickup. Originally Posted by sgosnell
Personally, I'll try playing without a pickguard for a while.
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My archtops have pickups, either set or floating. I have none without any pickup at all. I do sometimes play a couple acoustically though.
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I play my archtops almost 100% acoustically, but all have pickups and 3 of the 4 have floaters, so I likely couldn't get the pickguard off without screwing something up
Also, I know myself well enough to know there is a good chance I would subconsciously sabotage any meaningful sound test because I greatly prefer the look of an archtop with a pickguard on it.
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I took the pickguard off my archtop. I play unplugged unless recording, which I invariably put off as long as possible.
I don't know what difference it makes in terms of sound but it makes a big difference in playing. (With the pickguard, I inadvertently tap it while playing; with the pickguard off, that doesn't happen, and it just seems a more comfortable situation for my right hand.)
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Its a reasonable conclusion, but it could ve misleaded.
You can make a blind test yourself. Record yourself 6 times playing the same with and without pickguard and body separated from the back.
If you and others can guess which sounds better then the conclusion is right.
But it might be possible that you get confused in the place you are as a player. Or even feel the wood to vibrate more but it doesnt mean that the audience percieves any difference.
Beside "sound projection" is a very inaccurate term, of course it is used in acoustical music (not scientifically) but is misleading too IMHO. There is no way to not project a sound, its not that with the pickguard the same sound stays in the place and without it travels more. I heard people say that an instrument doesnt sound big nearby but it gets bigger from the distance.
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Acoustic archtop volume depends heavily on the strength of the plucking/strumming. A slight difference in how hard the strings are activated can make an audible difference in volume, and it's very difficult, if even possible, to play the same thing multiple times and use exactly the same amount of effort on every pluck of every string. Or even be really close enough in general from take to take. Precision is very difficult with anything, but especially here.
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Exactly, and this makes it a moot point for me. If I ever want to play electric, I need the pickup. Originally Posted by sgosnell
For my playing style, I also drag my pinkie on the pick guard a bit, so I use it for reference that way as well.
When I play acoustically it sounds fine, but I need the functionality of both anyway. YMMV etc.
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We always took the pickguards off all archtop Kays, Harmonies and, Silvertones, because they sounded better that way. 101: The poor mans way to get better tone. It of course stands to reason that covering up an F-hole will mute the guitar, especially the treble side.
Remember we use to tape close the f holes on full body archtops to stop feedback when playing them amplified? Remember the fake painted F holes on the Gretsch country gentleman?
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