Am I being too hard on this guitar? NGD Expectations vs Reality

[chris32895]

Question: Have any of you here ever ordered a guitar and it hasn't been what you expected, but was good/great in other ways? What did you do?


I recently acquired an Eastman AR175CE (Japanese equivalent to the AR371CE) used from Ishibashi music in Japan. I had an Epiphone Zephyr Regent that I really liked but was not too hot on some aspects of the sound and playability so I sold it. I ordered this guitar hoping that it would be a step up from the Epiphone and also have a liveliness that it lacked, especially when playing fingerstyle (which I heard these models were known for).

Anyways, fast forward 2 weeks and I got the guitar and it is great but sort of in the opposite direction of what I was hoping for. What I wanted was a resonant 175 style guitar that would be nice for fingerstyle and pick playing. What I got was a much thunkier guitar with probably the best electric sound I've gotten from an archtop yet, but really almost no acoustic presence.

I'm trying to figure out what to do with the guitar. It didn't cost a ton and there are aspects of it I like, even love, but it wasn't really what I was initially shooting for. I love the neck (fairly fat and wide. I'm SUPER picky about necks), the color (Antique Red but looks more like a violin varnish. Can post a picture later), the electric sound (probably the best electric sound I've gotten from an archtop yet - quintessential laminate jazzbox sound), and the instrument feels very comfortable, lightweight, and tailor fit to my body (seriously, I can forget it's there at times). I am not all that happy with the acoustic sound (the guitar feels honestly fairly dead in my lap. I expect an archtop to resonate against my torso when I play and this only does so with the lowest of notes) or the sustain, of which there is very little. I play unplugged a lot so acoustic sound is something I value.

Maybe I'm being too hard on this guitar and I should just accept it for what it is. It is my only archtop at the moment and I want something I can use for study and lessons. I REALLY don't want to run the gamut of posting this for sale, waiting for a buyer, making a sale in which I inevitably will lose money, shipping, then finding another archtop guitar which may be better or may be worse. So I'm trying to see the silver lining in the whole situation.

I know ultimately it's up to me as it's my instrument and my money, but it would be interesting to me to hear what others may or may not have done in a similar situation.

[DawgBone]

Every guitar comes with caveats no matter how good. Consider what you're saying. "I bought an electric guitar and it doesn't vibrate my chest enough acoustically". Doesn't seem like much of a realistic expectation though you could've gotten a dud if it's not ringing out nice acoustically. But going by your post it sounds to me like you should keep it a while and give it a chance. Take it to some jams. Let someone else good play it and get an idea of it's sound as an audience member.

[starjasmine]

Per your original post indicating it checks 5 of 6 boxes, I'd keep it and play it while you shop hands-on for the replacement. When you find "the one" you can decide whether to keep this one for all of its good qualities, or move on.

As if I've not said this enough :-) always play hands on before you buy. I no longer buy guitars sight unseen, and I no longer buy guitars thinking that "if I just do X, this guitar will be GREAT." Some people like tinkering - swapping pickups, changing bridges, etc. I don't. I just want to play and enjoy the guitar right now, and I don't have time for "project guitars." YMMV.

[Mick-7]

This model is a 16" laminate guitar, a version of the ES-175, I would not expect it to produce a good acoustic sound. What you got is what I would have hoped to get from it.

AR175CE/D (AR372CE/D)

Neck: 3 Piece Maple Fingerboard: Ebony Radius: 12" Nut Bone: 1 3/4" (44.5mm)
Fretwire: 20F Medium Jumbo Jescar 47104 Scale: 24 3/4" (628mm)
Body Style: Florentine Body Dimensions: 16" (406mm) x 3 5/16”" (84.1mm?
Top: Laminated Maple Back/Sides: Laminated Maple
Binding Top: 5 ply, Back: 3 ply, Neck: 1 ply, F holes: 1 ply
Binding Material: Ivoroid Finish: Truetone Gloss
Hardware Color: Nickel Pickguard: 3 Ply Plastic
Tailpiece: Chrome Plated Trapeze Style Bridge Adjustable Ebony Bridge
Tuners: Pingwell RM-1271
Pickup: Kent Armstrong HPAG-1 Set
Output: Switchcraft
Available Colors: Sunburst

[AllanAllen]

You're expecting liveliness out of a laminate top. That's like trying to find a fast snail. Laminate tops are used to be less resonant and help with feedback. Look into a carved top, for example AR503CE.

[Mick-7]

You're expecting liveliness out of a laminate top. That's like trying to find a fast snail. Laminate tops are used to be less resonant and help with feedback. Look into a carved top, for example AR503CE.

The fast snail did win the snail race but trying to pick the faster ones is tough!

I would expect a good acoustic sound from these (except for the 15" model), you have to pay more for that:
https://eastmanguitars.wixsite.com/e...itars/allsolid

And maybe from a solid top:
https://eastmanguitars.wixsite.com/e...itars/solidtop

[deacon Mark]

You need a Heritage Eagle from what you seem to want in a guitar. It will be much livelier acoustically but still be an electric guitar. The pickups will be better and in my opinion a way better guitar. It is going to cost a lot more money but that is my suggestion.

Also looking in the for sale section there is Hofner President of this a much better deal. Hofner New President 2001 | Reverb

[John A.]

Not many lam-top archtops have a lot of acoustic presence and resonance. The AR 71 is one of the more acoustic sounding ones out there. If it is the same guitar as what you bought and if that disappoints it might be time to start looking at carved tops.

I will say that my Seventy Seven Hawk Jazz Deep (which has a lam spruce top) has a pretty strong acoustic sound for a lam top (more so than an L4, for example), but I hesitate to recommend one because they’re very difficult to find. The Godin 5th Ave Kinpin also sounds remarkably good and loud unplugged. It’s very lightly built and resonant. But it’s not a fancy guitar, and you have to like P90s. D’Angelico EXL-1’s have some acoustic voice too. But none of these is really an acoustic guitar

To your actual question, I suggest trying to find one or more of the Eastman carved top models, or maybe a Loar LH-350 to see how you get on with an actual electrified acoustic archtop. Or temper your expectations and live with what you have.

[AllanAllen]

Also, what kind of strings do you have on it? I think you’ll want 13s or higher to really drive the top. You won’t get any acoustic sound with 10s, no matter what guitar you have.

[pawlowski6132]

I just got one of these; Gibson L4C.

Unlike the Gibson 175, it's solid wood.

However, you can't get a good electric sound and good acoustic sound. It will ALWAYS be a compromise.

Especially since to get a good acoustic sound, you'll need bronze strings which are suboptimal for pickups.

To get the most out of your pickup, you'll want Nickel strings which are suboptimal for acoustic.

[rpjazzguitar]

If someone said to a luthier, "your guitar has the best electric sound I've ever gotten from an archtop, but it's dead acoustically", would the luthier take the guitar back and say, "don't worry, I'll fix it"?

Or would he say, "you don't get both at this price".

[Jimmy blue note]

I always look for an acoustic quality, even in a laminate. It's not so much for the acoustic sound so much as the response I feel in the playing of the instrument. There's a quality of attack which I either find inspiring or discouraging.
I have done a lot of work on the physics of musical instruments. Arthur Benade has a book on acoustics of musical instruments wherein he points out that many instruments are virtually indistinguishable from each other without the attack and the quality of the decay. An A440 in the sustained body of the note from a violin and a clarinet will sound alike to most people's ears, even highly trained musicians.

The tactile feel and attack is VERY important in a guitar. In my experience, it's the big difference between schools of luthier construction (which I won't get into here). I have found some really good laminates. For my own taste, I see Eastman laminations very different from somebody like Borys, or post '70's Fujigen Ibanez guitars. I also have a Benedetto Bravo which has a very responsive laminate top to my hands. But this is SO much a matter of matching what comes out of your own touch with what you need to hear in your ear.

Listen to the chatter. It's informative. But know your needs well enough to have the courage to try lots of guitars. Learn the spectrum of responses. When you find something that works, get it, make music and don't look back.

[Dennis D]

If someone said to a luthier, "your guitar has the best electric sound I've ever gotten from an archtop, but it's dead acoustically", would the luthier take the guitar back and say, "don't worry, I'll fix it"?

Or would he say, "you don't get both at this price".

.....Or might that luthier say " you don't get both at any price "....??

[Cunamara]

Well, Chris, it seems to me that you just described the Gibson ES-175 in a nutshell. Mine is from 2005; the best archtop sound I've ever gotten and very close to the best electric guitar sound I've ever gotten. It is comfortable to play sitting or standing, looks great, has a great neck, etc.

Acoustic sound… well, I can hear it if I'm sitting on the couch and playing without an amp. But the acoustic sound is small compared to even my Ibanez GB10 or certainly my carved 17" archtop or even my cheap Takamine flattop that I bought in 1979. But the acoustic sound is just not what ES-175 style instruments are for. An exception might be the Heritage Sweet 16 or the Gibson L4CES, which are the same size and shape as the ES-175 but made with solid wood.

it sounds like your Eastman is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

[chris32895]

I always look for an acoustic quality, even in a laminate. It's not so much for the acoustic sound so much as the response I feel in the playing of the instrument. There's a quality of attack which I either find inspiring or discouraging.

Yes, this is exactly why I made this post. I have played/owned many laminate and carved guitars at this point. I understand the differences and that one will not sound like the other. HOWEVER, I do think it is possible for a laminate to have decent acoustic properties and resonance. I think an instrument like that is much more satisfying to play both plugged in and acoustically. I was simply surprised at this Eastman because most said their laminates are very thin and responsive and what I got was kind of the opposite. It's not totally dead and it does have a good sound when plugged in.

Per your original post indicating it checks 5 of 6 boxes, I'd keep it and play it while you shop hands-on for the replacement. When you find "the one" you can decide whether to keep this one for all of its good qualities, or move on.

This may just be what I end up doing as this seems like a still very decent tool for the job for now. The big plus is there are no glaring issues and there was already fret leveling and setup work done so I can get very low action.

Well, Chris, it seems to me that you just described the Gibson ES-175 in a nutshell...
it sounds like your Eastman is doing exactly what it's supposed to do.

I may just relegate this guitar as the "laminate"-sounding instrument for those types of sounds. I have always been a guy that has as few guitars as possible and I think I'm understanding now why some have a bunch of guitars - there are certainly unique traits to each instrument and no one instrument can get every sound you want.

Here's a picture

[Jim Soloway]

I think the fact that it has a weak acoustic voice may also be why it sounds so good when amplified.

[Gitterbug]

I own too many guitars. I keep telling it's because I need to test my cabs with a variety instruments and amps. My playing skills are nothing to write home about, and the music is currently limited to swing-era standards in an old boys' quintet. Apart from an electric 12-string, all of my axes would do the job. They currently include (in an ascending order): Harley-Benton LP clone, G&L Legacy, Epi Casino Coupe, Squier Tele Thinline, Ibanez Afj-91, Epiphone Emperor Regent, Gibson ES-175 VOS -59 reissue, Benedetto Bravo and Gibson Tal Farlow reissue. The Ibanez gets most of the gigs. The Emperor Regent will be the last one to go. The Tele is the black horse. They all sound different at home but - I repeat - they can all be made to work in a band setting.

[Jim Soloway]

I think the small acoustic voice may actually be why it sounds so good plugged in.

[Woody Sound]

I think we have to be careful to differentiate between tone and volume as part of the "sound."

[Cunamara]

I think the fact that it has a weak acoustic voice may also be why it sounds so good when amplified.

Ayup. A Les Paul sounds great amplified, but terrible acoustic tone. In an interview, Tal Farlow noted that (what's good for acoustic tone is bad for electric tone and vice versa."

[Stringswinger]

Ayup. A Les Paul sounds great amplified, but terrible acoustic tone. In an interview, Tal Farlow noted that (what's good for acoustic tone is bad for electric tone and vice versa."

Often the case, but not always. A D'Angelico (the real thing of course) can sound great both plugged in and unplugged. Not many guitars Excel at both (pun intended).

[garybaldy]

I find my budget German laminated archtops, as well as my Aria FA71, to have a huge acoustic sound. May be I mean they are just very loud and project well or is that the same thing?

[Dennis D]

With apologies to MPython's dead parrot sketch, for this variations on a theme - .....

" Yes, it's a lovely canary and sings beautifully, but I need to return it because it only has one leg."

" So what do you want - - a singer or a dancer ? "

[Sam Sherry]

I'm trying to figure out what to do with the guitar. It didn't cost a ton and there are aspects of it I like, even love, but it wasn't really what I was initially shooting for. . . .
Maybe I'm being too hard on this guitar and I should just accept it for what it is.

On the one hand, I am wide open to surprises. There's no better gearhead feeling than, "Dayum -- I like this a lot more than I had planned to!"
On this other hand, at this point I don't talk myself into stuff. If the guitar doesn't shout, "Pick me up, don't ever put me down and go figure out why," it's not going to stay long at my house. Even if it would be the perfect guitar for somebody else. Even if it would be the perfect guitar for me at some other point in time.

I REALLY don't want to run the gauntlet of posting this for sale, waiting for a buyer, making a sale in which I inevitably will lose money, shipping, then finding another archtop guitar which may be better or may be worse.

This is like paying for a music lesson. You are paying to learn about gear generally and about how from this piece in particular affects you musically.
Each instrument has some things to teach. Sometimes that takes time and sometimes that comes on like a sneeze (with a similar result).

All the best with your quest.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

You are paying to learn about gear generally and about how from this piece in particular affects you musically.
Each instrument has some things to teach. Sometimes that takes time and sometimes that comes on like a sneeze (with a similar result).

Absolutely! I consider the cost of the many guitars, amps etc I’ve bought & sold to be tuition. I've learned something from each one - and it’s often as simple as “don’t buy something like this again”. I’ve usually been able to figure out why, too - and it’s even better when I learn how to correct or change something to overcome a barrier to my enjoyment.

The keepers are usually obvious to me from day 1. I’ve had 3 of my guitars for 30 years and have bought 3 in the last 6 years that will also stay with me until I’m too feeble to open the case. All 6 are different from each other and none does everything. But each does what it does extremely well and I love them all.

Even if their value hadn’t gone up as much as any reasonable risk investment, I’d feel the same. Fortunately, I haven’t lost any $ on any of them (although I can’t say that about everything I’ve bought & sold). Still & all, the experience and education was well worth the cost.