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I'm finally ready to take a plunge into L5 land. My initial research has said that an L5CES is really 'the tone' that is on all the albums. But I'm not seeing any great options available right now that are tempting me. I also get a little skittish about paying >10K for any guitar but especially one that is 50+ years old.
So that has led me to the following options:
Heritage Golden Eagle ... similar specs except most have floating humbucker vs. set ... universal love & praise it seems like. Lot's of good ones available in the ~6-7K range, which I'm ok with. (For example: Just a moment...)
Heritage Eagle Classic ... similar L5 specs, with set humbuckers ... they seem to also get a ton of love. Several good ones available in the 4-5K range. (For example: (Just a moment...)
That is my main question but a 2 bonus questions would be:
What about an L5 Wes Montgomery? There is a really nice Crimson Custom shop L5 Wes available right now for ~9K. It would seem like a no-brainer that the best L5CES of these options would be the L5 Wes ... but I've read a ton that the L5 Wes is much brighter than the CES. (Just a moment...)
Last option I've zero'd in on would be the cheapest of the bunch, an Epiphone Elitist Broadway. There is a very very nice one available for ~3K. These seem to get a good amount of praise as well. (Just a moment...)
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Any thoughts on these 4 options would be appreciated!
-g
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06-17-2025 10:56 PM
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If the sound of an L-5CES is what you want, save your coins and buy one. You will get one eventually as none of the choices you listed will get you that sound. So, save yourself the time and trouble and get what you really want.
My 2 cents, which if my advice is followed will cost you thousands of dollars, but in the end, you will thank me for the advice.
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lol ... tough but fair
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The plunge into L-5 land requires an L-5, unfortunately. There are approximations that can sound very, very good (Heritage, Campellone for example). The WesMo sounds a little different than the CES due to having only a neck pickup.
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Have you thought about a Hutchins era custom shop L-5 Studio? It's got the exact same specs as an L-5CES (carved top etc) but none of the bling and trim. I have one in sunburst from the year 2000 and have played quite a few L-5CES. My L-5 Studio plays, sounds and feels identical to a CES. There is one on reverb for 4.5K which is a fair price. Here is a pic of my L-5 Studio.
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If you want an L-5CES then buy a L-5CES
My advice would be to play the one(s) you want to buy first but I realize that’s not often possible. It is still the best way to end up with what you will ultimately be satisfied with, however…
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Ooohhh.... no I hadn't really looked into these. My initial perusal led me to believe they were considered not that great (and I thought they tended to only come in really awful finishes). That one looks great ... I will definitely need to check these out. Thank you!
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Lots of good advice proffered by the éminence grise
of the forum. Let me add my two cents: if you are constrained by budget through exercise of self-restraint and discipline the Epiphone Elitist Broadway is a good stand-in for the Gibson L-5CES played plugged in. The Epi Broadway Elitist has a pair of Gibson pickups (490T and 490R, provided they have not been swapped out). It has much of that smokey Gibson L-5CES flavour amped.
If budget is not a constraint, and you want an L-5CES then get an L-5CES. Accept no substitute.
PS The aforementioned L-5 Studio is a good one.
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The budget difference between a modern L-5CES and an ‘equivalent’ Heritage seems to be around $1k-$1.5k, no? If you really want an
L-5CES I don’t think it makes too much sense to not just save or stretch for the L-5. You can end up. with an expensive and time-consuming situation if you don’t honor your desires. The heart wants what the heart wants, as they say…
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I am not one to agree with the prevailing sentiment here that the L-5 Wes Montgomery is "much brighter" than the two-pickups CES. It's somewhat different being neck pickup alone, but......use your amp EQ, sparingly. The Wes has sounds the CES can't quite get due to the CES acoustic dampening. But then I'm not a pure jazzer after one single tone. I have a 2001 Wes which I selected after playing several CESs of different vintages, but that's me. That 2013 Wes @thatrhythmman is going to be a great L-5. Just negotiate return privilege terms, even if you have to pay a little more. Or just call Chuck and discuss the guitar in detail with him. You'll get full transparency about what it is and how it might fit you. Or not.
The advice to buy an L-5 CES if you want an L-5 CES isn't wrong, btw. But I don't think it's magical by itself.
I've played maybe 15 Heritage equivalents over the last 30 years. I felt nor heard no issues with any of them. Even OK with the headstock!
But, none of them sounded nor felt quite like an L-5. They were equal or better craft quality but still their own thing. So if you consider a Heritage as an alternative, then it's also worth considering (since you are looking for a price break) something from Guild. An X-700, or even if you're going pure electric, an X-500 (not carved though). Or go for a fab Artist Award with a floater, but you can change out the stock pickup for a nicer, fatter humbucker than the stock one from the 90s instead of a single coil. It won't cost you $10K. In archtops, I have Gibson, Guild, Epiphone and one Fender D'Aquisto. Each family has its own voice and none of them are bad in any way. If you want to save even more cash, look into Gibson/Kalamazoo-built Epiphones, circa 1959-1968. Those can be great but the market values them much less.
But, personally, if I didn't already have a Hutchins era wine red L-5 Wes, I'd be all over the 2013 Wes That Rhythm Man has.
Phil
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There is a certain level of prestige associated with owning the mighty and powerful L5. And the "buy once, cry once" philosophy could also come into effect. But Heritage (especially the older ones) and Campellone certainly make very fine 'forever' guitars for less money than an L5.
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Originally Posted by gavinashun
I once heard a good stock purchasing / market timing tip that may fit here - paraphrasing -
' If you buy the non-L5 CES, whichever make or model it may be, you may very well have to be correct and lucky twice - -once when you buy it and then again when you find the L5CES you really want, and decide to / have to sell this other one. '..........Then the real cost of the lesson becomes clear...
Good luck !
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Thanks - you're definitely making me think hard about that 2013 L5Wes. I didn't realize it was a well-known forum guy that is listing it - that also makes me more enthusiastic.
Yeah I should have added a few things in the main post:
1) Regarding money and L5CES ... it isn't exactly the money per se. I can afford whatever. But two things:
(1) I think I will feel uncomfortable taking out a $12K guitar to play around. Like, I'm going to Stanford Jazz Camp in a few weeks ... then later on I'm playing in a trio at a cafe ... and I'm sure I'll have a few jams with friends. It just seems weird for me to imagine taking a $10-12K guitar to these settings. Like, I'll be so nervous about it. And yes, 6-7K for a nice Heritage or whatever is a lot too ... but somehow once you get to 5 digits it crosses a psychological threshold. And
(2) yeah I know you can find L5CES for under 10K, but those ones are all 50+ years old and, it may irrational, but I am worried paying that much for a guitar that is that old. So I'd want a newer CES and the newer ones that are in good shape seem to cost more like 12-14K.
2) While I'm definitely after "that L-5 tone" I wouldn't say that my feeling is "I must have that exact tone or I'll be unhappy." If a Hertiage Golden Eagle is in that ballpark, but still has its own thing going in a good way, that might be AOK.
Yeah, so I think I'm currently at:
- Heritage Golden Eagle or Eagle Classic: still very intrigued ... the Golden Eagle especially seems like it has many die-hard fans
- The L5Wes from forum member ... might be perfect ... JUST under the money threshold where I would have a hard time imagine taking it out.
- L-5 Studio - there is a really nice one for 4.5K
- Epiphone Elitist Broadway - really nice one for 3K, could be good 'training wheels' L5
Really appreciate everyone's thoughts ... very helpful!
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In case you haven't seen them already, here are a few L5s (CES and Wes Mo) in the $7500-8200 range (before taxes and shipping). The blonde Hutch has my vote!
Just a moment...
Just a moment...
Just a moment...
Also a very interesting Wes Mo style Heritage Eagle for a decent price:
Just a moment...
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I gig out in cafes, outdoor festivals, just about any venue with my 1990 Benedetto Cremona. The "market" price on my guitar is easily twice what a nice L-5 is. I really don't think about it much, other than being careful with it. I've had several conversations with Bob and he agrees-he built the guitar to be played and bring joy to the player and audience.
Think about how much a working professional violinist has invested in just a bow...very often as much as a
L-5!
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A few things to consider on the matter of a 50 years old guitar and public use out in the wild:
1/ In The World According to Garp, TS Garp is considering buying a house and is mulling his decision, standing outside with his realtor. A small airplane begins sputtering in the distance, which gets closer and has everyone's attention. Garp watches the plane crash straight into the second story of the house, the pilot clambering out of the wreckage. Garp looks at his realtor with a big smile and says, "I'll take it! It's been pre-disastered!" (Many people said the same thing about the rear-end styling of the 1980s Alfa Romeo 75, "Milano" in the US.) In any condition but absolute and truly mint, the old guitar will have some scrapes, oxidation, nicks, finish dents, neck wear and other cosmetic scars. Depending who owned it, a three year old guitar might also. You'll likely feel less anxiety playing an old guitar out. Just, to paraphrase John Hartford, don't leave your Gibsons in the su-uh-un.
2/ A Gibson Super 400 was introduced in 1934 at $400. That was quite an outlay during the Depression. In 2025 money it was equivalent to $9,595.97 (which, BTW is just about what @thatrhythmman is asking for the 2013 Wes he has). Point is, those $400 Super 400s were bought in many instances by gigging musicians, which is why if you buy a 1930s archtop, it looks the way it does. They didn't worry, why should you? And I think the average Super 400 buyer laying down $400 in 1934 had a lot more at stake in his or her guitar than many of us here do in terms of "...but what happens if someone kicks it over??..." You get it repaired.
3/ "I didn't realize it was a well-known forum guy that is listing it - that also makes me more enthusiastic."
I've bought three archtops from Chuck in the last six months, one almost ten years old, one 24 years old and one 81 years old. All three Gibsons. All of them arrived exactly as described and play beautifully. Nothing about them unmentioned, missed or deviated in any way. If you go with the 2013 Wes he has, you'll have a flawless transaction.
Good luck deciding!
PhilLast edited by 213Cobra; 06-18-2025 at 05:40 PM.
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I have and L5ces and also owned an Epiphone Elite Broadway for a long time and often played them one after the other, made a few YouTube videos comparing them. Honestly, I love the L5ces but right now if I could sell my L5 and know I was buying an Elite Broadway that was up to the "Elite" standard, I'd do it. I found the Broadway a bit easier to play (slightly thinner neck) but the tone was to my ear indistinguishable from the L5ces. Mine had a noticeably more prominent arch than my L5, which actually surprised me. The pickups were very good, easily as good as the Classic 57's on the L5. Originally Posted by gavinashun
I did sell the Epi when I needed some cash and didn't think I could sell the L5 as quickly. But I am seriously considering hunting another one and if I find a good one, selling the L5ces. They are both fantastic guitars, but I found the Epiphone to be the match to the L5ces. When you think how fantastic an L5 is, that's saying a lot.
I know that's heresy so let the stoning begin!
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I enjoy and learn from many on this forum but it is the heart of Gibson worship bias, more power to ya! that said Ive had my Gibson for over 50yrs and wouldnt part with it. If its a CES (mounted pickup) Rich S among many others have demonstrated depending on all the variables, string,pick,player, amp, pedal?, many similar designs sound as good or better. The "sound " of all CES Gibson l5s is the same? I agree with the fan base, if its a Gibson you want get a Gibson but...dont think your getting a "better" guitar, for half or less you can get an excellent classic or GE Heritage or many other options. Not to mention for what L5s are listed for you could have something much nicer made to order. Another thing to remember is Gibson elves dont make their guitars, factory workers do just like everywhere else. My last jab...you really think the guitar is gonna make you sound like (fill in your favorite player) cause its also an L5? or even funnyier to me Wes?
Last edited by Rickco; 06-19-2025 at 12:58 PM.
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All are tempting. I’ve enjoyed my 2007 Elitist Broadway and can highly recommend them. Originally Posted by gavinashun
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Couple things.
1) I don't understand th issue with older guitars. As many would point out, an older guitar has done all the moving it's going to do. Although not an entirely true statement, someone could always leave it against a radiator all winter but the point remains. I would rather by an older Gibson than a newer one because a newer one could develop cracks, finish issues and the such. Not to mention, older wood and pickups always 'seems' to sound better. If you can buy a 50 year old L5 for the price of a modern Wes, I'd say there's something wrong with the market.
2) L5 CES's have their sound because acoustically they're quite dead, given they are solid wood, carved guitars (not tuned). The twin pickups and the satellite braces are meant to make sure the top does not crack. Older Gibsons have thinner tops and the tops have stood the test of time. Replacing an L5CES is therefore not a matter of finding something 'similar', it's finding something that has the same design under the hood, which I would assume most do not have. Hence why an L5CES sounds like an L5CES.
The west being the ultimate l5CES is an oxymoron.
3) Other guitars you could consider would be a Guild X700 as mentioned above. The X700 has a thick top and twin pickups. The only thing that stops it from really filling the hole left by a CES, is the Guild has a 24'3/4 neck. A 25.5" scale is really imo what gives the L5 its pop and satisfying playing feel. That being said, I've had many archtops, including a CES and the X700 was my favourite. Very thick nutty tone, very stable, easy to play (easier than your average Gibson imo) and very importantly, very feedback resistant, given its size. This is a big factor. The Epiphone Broadway another option. I would have thought that guitar would be more like a wesmo regarding brightness. The tops are pressed but they are laminated so slightly darker.
Any solid top, with two pickups and a 25.5" scale, will get you well in the ball park, until you eventually buy the CES (as someone mentioned above). It's your destiny. You and almost every other archtop player/fan since the beginning of jazz.
IF you're starting out and going to play out, I would swerve a high end Gibson and go for something cheap and fun and relatively feedback resistant. Nothing worse than not being able to play your guitar because it feedback like banshee when turned up to 2.Last edited by Archie; 06-18-2025 at 08:19 PM.
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Back in the day my dad told me to always buy the best I could afford.
I think the previously mentioned 'buy once cry once' is the same concept.
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Set vs. floating pickup demo by Rich Severson using Heritage Golden Eagles. Hard to get much better tone than this with either.
While up thread I said that jumping into the L5 waters requires an L5, it depends on how insistent you are on that particular set of tonalities. Personally, I like the sound of these two Heritages better than most of the Gibson L5s I've ever heard. But Rich also records a guitar very, very well.
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Older guitars and valuable guitars are meant to be gigged, too!
BTW where are you finding all these ‘older’ guitars for under $10k?? If by older you mean from the 90s, that’s a potentially great guitar but not considered vintage Either way, an L-5 or a Heritage Eagle is an expensive guitar and you’ll have to accept you have expensive tastes in guitars
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When I was young, I bought a 10-spead bike from a local discount store. I"d wanted a Raleigh Record, but it was so much more expensive. I brought the cheap one home, and my dad said "Do you like that bike?" I said, sure. Then he said, "Good. Because you'll get to buy it again!" I learned my lesson, sold the cheap one and saved for the Raleigh, which I owned and enjoyed for over 20 years. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
I have gigged with 15K dollar guitars and I have gigged with 500 dollar guitars. I doubt anyone in the audience other than a few guitar players cared or could tell the difference. In fact, in the noise of a restaurant or bar gig, I probably cannot even hear the difference. But I do enjoy fine guitars, so I own quite a few. Playing them inspires me to play better. And that is what it is all about. Play the guitar(s) that inspire your playing. Drive the car that makes you enjoy driving. Sleep with the woman who makes your life happy. Just remember that if it has wheels, guitar strings or tits, it is going to give you some trouble from time to time. But those troubles are worth it.
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