Guitar Center CEO: how to keep new guitar buyers; focus on making “serious musicians”

[AllanAllen]

I would like to state for posterity that I am in the youngest 10% of members here based on the various threads when people drop answer a poll with that information.

And I find myself REPEATEDLY reading threads where the folks on this forum are like "ahhhhh I've been playing guitar for fifty years and I still suck," or "I don't practice anymore because there are no gigs" or "some of us aren't lucky enough to live near tons of jazz and musicians to play with," or "some people just don't have the talent to be pros no matter how hard they try" or, or, or ...

I repeatedly find myself screaming into the void that pretty much anyone can learn the damn thing with some time and some genuine interest.

And yet, I also pop over to threads like this and see them chock full of people talking about us young folk just don't want to work anymore.

So I'm a little confused about who got lazy when and why the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

(EDIT: also some pop music these days rules. some pop music is bad. all of it is fun. it's rather a lot like it was fifty years ago. this is another conversation i keep having on this forum.)

preach

[Cunamara]

There’s a general perception that sticktoitiveness no longer has any rewards.

You're not wrong, to some extent, but rather than laziness you seem to be implying, I think it's the realization that most of the results of your sticktoitiveness is siphoned off into someone else's pockets. The robber barons live. Why should I work my ass off to enrich someone else?

[GuyBoden]

How do you encourage a young person to play Jazz guitar, if there are very few Jazz gigs?

These very few Jazz gigs in my area of the UK are played by professionals, usually the very best professional players.

But, there are plenty of Pop/Rock 'Cover Band' gigs playing in my local pubs and also amateur Pop/Rock Jam nights.

[YOGA64]

In my tech career I have worked with the full living demographic stack. I had Greatest Generation types my Dad's age working for me early in my career. And Silent Generation types the ages of my older siblings. I'm a Boomer; also managed along with the above, Gen Xers, Millennials and Gen-Z types. Counting interns, I have people 50 years younger than me in the guidance chain (which is a two-way street, BTW).

I've never seen any evidence that kids don't want to work or learn or get good at stuff in any way that could be legitimately generalized. Now, there have been differences in workstyles, socializations, motivations and the like, but those were just differences responsible managers and teachers are duty-bound to grok, assimilate, respond to and (to a reasonable degree) adapt to. People of my generation, once we got to working, generally sacrificed more in the work/life balance in favor of work than today's twenty-somethings prefer, but they're not wrong. I can't say that the postponements of work/life balance were altogether worth doing, looking back. But we also entered the workforce against a background of both double-digit inflation *and* unemployment in the '70s and early '80s when the people who let us in were generally rigid in their thinking. Put another way, WE were the "...kids, these days..." misanthropes to them.

We Boomers grew up with both fewer choices and more. I got my first guitar in 1968. My first musical instrument in 1961. Schools had robust music education programs and in the background the music scene was burgeoning. We didn't have videogames. Skiing was expensive and somewhat exotic. Nobody had gym memberships. In line with our music saturation, hifi competed for time and funds. We didn't have cellphones nor the internet. And fortunately, no social media. We had generally a lot less parental supervision growing up, meaning kids were free-ranging in the summers in the '60s and early '70s. Compared to today, college was cheap. Between six years of undergraduate and graduate education with degrees earned, I finished all of it with a student loans total of $8,000, thanks to great state universities, scholarships and robust support from older generations for a college imperative. My student loans were federally-guaranteed with an interest rate of 6%. I incurred that debt between 1972-1978, with payments deferred through a Peace Corps term. I started paying off those loans in 1980 and retired the total by 1985. Who gets their student loans paid off in five years now? "Kids these days" came up in a completely different set of circumstances, and at least as much reason to feel cynical as we Vietnam War era kids did. And yet, with very few exceptions (always present in any population) I found even the most recent young workers to be optimistic, engaged and productive, outputting very good to excellent work even if they did so on a different schedule and using different techniques than I was accustomed to.

Particularly in the USA, we definitely have a continuing cultural problem with people wanting instant gratification, but let's be honest -- people my parent's age said the same thing about us Boomers as kids and early-entrants to the workforce. Against declining support for general education that's been going on since roughly 1975, the stagnation of real middle class and worker wages, truncated manufacturing opportunities and the volcanic eruption in higher education costs, not to mention having had to weather early in life both the 2008-2010 Crash and then the COVID disruption, let's just accept that "kids these days" were influenced by different obstacles and disruptions than we Boomers were.

So when I hear that young people intrinsically have less persistence for learning guitar or any other instrument, I call bullshit. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that the young people I've met who have taken up guitar have learned faster and gotten good at it at a quicker pace than we did, generally. Guitar is one of the pursuits I sacrificed to a work/life balance tilted heavily to work. Now I'm getting some more time as I gradually wind that down and guess what -- I'm spending more time with guitar than anytime in the past 25 years. I didn't get lazy when I wasn't playing much, but it's still my own doing that I didn't get better than I am now, much sooner.

Even if older people believe their "kids these days" generalizations, there is no influence to be had by making a point of it. Better to share what we know, encourage interest and try to understand what influenced younger people to be who they are, for better or worse. I'm 71. To a 91 year old, I'm the kid. For interest in guitar or otherwise, you can't make the world better by tearing down the generations behind you.

Phil

Thanks Phil,

I'm "just" 60, and I was born and live in Italy,

so totally different background and country, but I wholeheartedly agree with you statement.

Wonderfully written as well, thank you for your sharing,

Piero

[pamosmusic]

How do you encourage a young person to play Jazz guitar, if there are very few Jazz gigs?

These very few Jazz gigs in my area of the UK are played by professionals, usually the very best professional players.

But, there are plenty of Pop/Rock 'Cover Band' gigs playing in my local pubs and also amateur Pop/Rock Jam nights.

Make the gigs. Help them get bands together. They’ll be happy just to learn and play.

also tell them cover bands are cool and fun and don’t be weird about it

[pamosmusic]

Even if older people believe their "kids these days" generalizations, there is no influence to be had by making a point of it. Better to share what we know, encourage interest and try to understand what influenced younger people to be who they are, for better or worse. I'm 71. To a 91 year old, I'm the kid. For interest in guitar or otherwise, you can't make the world better by tearing down the generations behind you.

Phil

Amen

[gvurrdon]

These very few Jazz gigs in my area of the UK are played by professionals, usually the very best professional players.

But, there are plenty of Pop/Rock 'Cover Band' gigs playing in my local pubs and also amateur Pop/Rock Jam nights.

There are certainly plenty of professional jazz gigs in my area of the UK as well. It's harder to find amateur gigs, but there are a reasonable number of jam sessions. One of them, in North Oxford, is apparently quite popular with guitarists.

[pamosmusic]

The fixation on gigs is a weird one to me.

I grew up in rural Virginia. About 2,500 people in my town, and that was the county seat. Worked summers on a produce farm. Cows outnumbered people 3:1 etc etc.

I played solo in church during offertory or while people were getting seated before the service. I played at the one open mic in the county two Friday nights a month. Ended up finding an older guy who was a monster country player and knew some American songbook standards from that. Played with him as much as I could.

I joined the jazz band my senior year which was the third year there had ever been one at my school. Wed had a great band director start my freshman year and he was able to get it off the ground his second year there. He left the year after I graduated because he was completely burned out.

I played “duo” with the trombone player in his basement all the time and we were terrible.

Anyway — my point is that people who want to play are not motivated by gigs. Gigs are great additional motivation or validation for people who play. But if you have trouble motivating yourself to really practice and play when there’s no gig, then I have news — you have trouble motivating yourself to practice and play.

As for the flipside of this — I live in a small city now and people like to talk about how it’s kind of a cultural desert. One of my best friends has been starting sessions and inviting kids and hosting open mics for fifteen years. When I went to college, I played out and stuff almost exclusively because he brought me out. Not a lot of people are willing to do that work.

The moral of the story is that if you want kids and amateurs and hobbyists to be exposed to more and better music and more and better opportunities, then that’s your job. Doesn’t matter who you are. That’s your job. Make the gig. Start the hang. Go to see other amateurs when they’re playing out. Teach kids. Support policies that strengthen music education for children.

If you’re waiting for someone else to do it, you’re waiting for someone else to do your job.

[DawgBone]

The fixation on gigs is a weird one to me.

I grew up in rural Virginia. About 2,500 people in my town, and that was the county seat. Worked summers on a produce farm. Cows outnumbered people 3:1 etc etc.

I played solo in church during offertory or while people were getting seated before the service. I played at the one open mic in the county two Friday nights a month. Ended up finding an older guy who was a monster country player and knew some American songbook standards from that. Played with him as much as I could.

I joined the jazz band my senior year which was the third year there had ever been one at my school. Wed had a great band director start my freshman year and he was able to get it off the ground his second year there. He left the year after I graduated because he was completely burned out.

I played “duo” with the trombone player in his basement all the time and we were terrible.

Anyway — my point is that people who want to play are not motivated by gigs. Gigs are great additional motivation or validation for people who play. But if you have trouble motivating yourself to really practice and play when there’s no gig, then I have news — you have trouble motivating yourself to practice and play.

As for the flipside of this — I live in a small city now and people like to talk about how it’s kind of a cultural desert. One of my best friends has been starting sessions and inviting kids and hosting open mics for fifteen years. When I went to college, I played out and stuff almost exclusively because he brought me out. Not a lot of people are willing to do that work.

The moral of the story is that if you want kids and amateurs and hobbyists to be exposed to more and better music and more and better opportunities, then that’s your job. Doesn’t matter who you are. That’s your job. Make the gig. Start the hang. Go to see other amateurs when they’re playing out. Teach kids. Support policies that strengthen music education for children.


If you’re waiting for someone else to do it, you’re waiting for someone else to do your job.

Gigs motivate me to stay sharp on my instrument. If there is no gig, there is no one to impress, therefore I see less point in spending 3 or more hours a day just to entertain myself. Gigs grease the skids of my operation and entice better players to work with me. As a bandleader you have to fixate on gigs or you will not have a band long.

[pamosmusic]

Gigs motivate me to stay sharp on my instrument. If there is no gig, there is no one to impress, therefore I see less point in spending 3 or more hours a day just to entertain myself. Gigs grease the skids of my operation and entice better players to work with me. As a bandleader you have to fixate on gigs or you will not have a band long.

You don’t practice when you don’t have gigs?

Follow up question: how much work would you say you put in to make sure you have gigs?

[DawgBone]

You don’t practice when you don’t have gigs?

Follow up question: how much work would you say you put in to make sure you have gigs?

I do practice if I don't have gigs but I call that down time so it's a chance to do something besides just play guitar. For example, I am finishing out the house I built. If I don't have gig that week I will put more effort into that. It's been a balancing act.

As for your follow up question, I don't book the gigs any longer so other than hitting jams and looking for potential venues my main focus is personal practice, writing new material, and looking for new standards that will best work with my band. When I did book gigs I spent tuesday mornings from about 8 am to 12 sending messages and hunting down venues, usually with a guitar in my hands.

My best paying gigs of the summer are this weekend and next. I have a radio appearance tomorrow (acoustic, yuck) to promote it. Since last October I have averaged about 3 hours per day preparing for this weekends event, never mind being on top of things for other usual gigs.

[Doug B]

He just loves the guitar and music, and he's at equilibrium with that.

Which reminds me of a t-shirt I saw on Amazon:

"I Play the Guitar because I like it, not because I'm good at it."

Amazon.ca

[spencer096]

If it wasn't for John Lennon, I would not be a guitar player. Clapton Hendrix and EVH all loomed large in my interest in the instrument as well.

Kids today have poor role models, musically and otherwise.

John Lennon is a good role model?

[FourOnSix]

John Lennon is a good role model?

In terms of creativity, yes. Mahatma Ghandi is not going to motivate anyone to play guitar.

[spencer096]

In terms of creativity, yes. Mahatma Ghandi is not going to motivate anyone to play guitar.

just had a chuckle thinking of those four guitarists as role models, specifically the "otherwise" part. for example, eddie van halen drove a tank up to the limp bizkit guy's house, while armed to the teeth, just to get some amps back...good god! all four of those guys are cautionary tales, not role models.

[John A.]

Here's my entirely data-free, made-up theory:

Let's say 2-ish generations ago and earlier, nearly everyone had some sort of music lessons or played/sang in their home/school/community because that's what people did in the absence of ubiquitous recordings and music broadcast (and now streaming) media. In that golden era, probably 10% of the people who took lessons on an instrument as kids stuck with it and played an instrument as adults. 10% of everybody is a lot of musicians. Over time, a decreasing percent of the overall population had some sort of music training and/or participatory experience (with the trend occasionally interrupted by spikes in interest in instruments), but about the same 10% of the people who had that experience stuck with music into adulthood. Now we have 10% of a much smaller cohort playing music, which means giant instrument retailers are screwed unless each of the people in that same 10% of an ever-shrinking cohort buys lots instruments.

[sgosnell]

Older folks have been complaining about the kids these days as long as there have been kids, and will continue to do so as long as there are older folks. Society and technology change constantly, always in flux, and it can be difficult to adjust if your ego makes you think you know it all. And IME, the older most people get, the more set they are in their ways, and the less knowledge and compassion they have for and about younger generations. The most influential role models kids have is their parents and other family members. If you have kids and/or grandkids, you're a role model all day, every day, 24/7/365, in everything you do. So is everyone else, however, so society has a big influence too. I try to remember that the kids of today will be in charge of things soon enough. Then they'll be complaining about the next generation of kids.

As for jazz, it's already the music of a couple of generations ago. I appreciate the music my parents listened to, but not everyone does. Tastes change, as they should. Living in the past is a dead end. Big mandolin orchestras came and went. Brass bands playing in the park came and went. Everything changes, and that's probably for the best.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I also pop over to threads like this and see them chock full of people talking about us young folk just don't want to work anymore. So I'm a little confused about who got lazy when and why the world is going to hell in a hand basket.

First, I have to say that you're a vanishing breed. You clearly put effort into your thinking, you express yourself clearly, and you use language artfully while staying within the grammatical and syntactic framework that was expected of us over 70 years ago when I started school. You make your points without resorting to profanity or cliché, and you take things seriously without being dogmatic or defensive. I laud and thank you and those responsible for guiding you to your current place in life. You seem to be a wonderful example of what many of us old codgers want to see in our successors. I may not agree with everything you say, but exchanging our viewpoints makes both of us better and stronger.

This thread encompasses so many areas that it's impossible to find commonality in the subtopics. We can't sum up the sociological change of the last 50 years in one paragraph or concept or observation. "When I was a boy", my friends and I played baseball and basketball, rode our bikes, did our homework, went to the movies, listened to records and the radio, went to dances and parties, learned to play musical instruments, read books, etc etc. We spent time alone, but a lot of our activities were in groups. We learned to deal with those whose opinions differed from ours. We put up with bullies and defended the kids who needed help, but we gravitated to groups with like interests and atittudes. I navigated the halls of large public schools without getting into fights, and I managed to get a good education while having a lot of fun.

I used to run home from school to check the mail for my goodies, like the latest issue of Downbeat and letters from girls I liked and friends I'd made through youth groups etc. Everything happened more slowly than it does today. We worked and saved for the things we wanted - no one put a bicycle or a guitar on a credit card. Things only went on sale after Christmas. TV ads just made you thirsty for 7-Up and stirred a desire for cleaner clothes. They didn't promise that everyone could have luxury goods or a flat stomach immediately, fly to Aruba next week for spring break, or get approved instantly for a loan.

Today, kids as young as 10 are having cosmetic facial surgery to look better on Instagram. Clear and voluminous data show a dramatic and progressive decline in dating, mating, close friendships, long term relationships, faith in anything, well defined career paths, happiness, stability, resilience, and optimism. There's pressure on everyone today to have followers and to impress with tales and pictures told in snippets. Pretty much every ad offers instant something - talent, skill, beauty, health, relief, weight loss, muscle mass, coolness, a sharper mind, youthfulness if you're old, and maturity if you're young.

I understand evolution very well. I know that language evolves through use. But cliché, slang, profanity, and a string of "umm...you know....like..." with a few words interspaced among the utterances don't seem to me to be an advancement over learning to communicate effectively with consistent, shared grammar and syntax. Cultures also evolve over time, but texting people sitting next to you rather than talking to them seems to me not to convey any competitive advantage. One of the greatest things about being in bands as a kid was learning to interact productively with others. A Zoom jam session was fine during Covid when there was no alternative - but (at least to me) it's just not a substitute for being there.

Video music lessons are popular because they take less time, require no transportation for teacher and/or student, and are often cheaper than live lessons. I've taught undergraduate and graduate students for over 50 years. When we started online programs at my university about 12 years ago, I taught a pair of one semester courses for about 6 years before I retired from the faculty. I was consistently in the top 3 as rated by our students every semester. But I don't think I gave my students the experience and education they would have gotten in person. So I held an open session once a month for any who wanted to come to my office - and I was amazed at how many took advantage of it, some from hours away.

The will to work hard and the belief that it will lead to delayed gratification have been waning among much of the population in the US for years. It's not just the young, and it's not their fault. They're influenced by their parents and their relentless immersion in purportedly instant solutions to problems that simply cannot be solved instantly. Learning to play like Van Halen in 10 easy lessons is just one such problem. The key for me was learning to be happy even though I wasn't completely satisfied, and maintaining the motivation and willingness to pursue goals that seemed not to be immediately achievable. Ahhh - I've been playing for 70 years and I don't suck. But Pasquale Grasso's not looking over his shoulder to see if I'm catching up, either

[AllanAllen]

just had a chuckle thinking of those four guitarists as role models, specifically the "otherwise" part. for example, eddie van halen drove a tank up to the limp bizkit guy's house, while armed to the teeth, just to get some amps back...good god! all four of those guys are cautionary tales, not role models.

With a small bit of research, you’ll find that most of the great artists are not well adjusted model citizens.

[pamosmusic]

First, I have to say that you're a vanishing breed. You clearly put effort into your thinking, you express yourself clearly, and you use language artfully while staying within the grammatical and syntactic framework that was expected of us over 70 years ago when I started school. You make your points without resorting to profanity or cliché, and you take things seriously without being dogmatic or defensive. I laud and thank you and those responsible for guiding you to your current place in life. You seem to be a wonderful example of what many of us old codgers want to see in our successors. I may not agree with everything you say, but exchanging our viewpoints makes both of us better and stronger.

This thread encompasses so many areas that it's impossible to find commonality in the subtopics. We can't sum up the sociological change of the last 50 years in one paragraph or concept or observation. "When I was a boy", my friends and I played baseball and basketball, rode our bikes, did our homework, went to the movies, listened to records and the radio, went to dances and parties, learned to play musical instruments, read books, etc etc. We spent time alone, but a lot of our activities were in groups. We learned to deal with those whose opinions differed from ours. We put up with bullies and defended the kids who needed help, but we gravitated to groups with like interests and atittudes. I navigated the halls of large public schools without getting into fights, and I managed to get a good education while having a lot of fun.

I used to run home from school to check the mail for my goodies, like the latest issue of Downbeat and letters from girls I liked and friends I'd made through youth groups etc. Everything happened more slowly than it does today. We worked and saved for the things we wanted - no one put a bicycle or a guitar on a credit card. Things only went on sale after Christmas. TV ads just made you thirsty for 7-Up and stirred a desire for cleaner clothes. They didn't promise that everyone could have luxury goods or a flat stomach immediately, fly to Aruba next week for spring break, or get approved instantly for a loan.

Today, kids as young as 10 are having cosmetic facial surgery to look better on Instagram. Clear and voluminous data show a dramatic and progressive decline in dating, mating, close friendships, long term relationships, faith in anything, well defined career paths, happiness, stability, resilience, and optimism. There's pressure on everyone today to have followers and to impress with tales and pictures told in snippets. Pretty much every ad offers instant something - talent, skill, beauty, health, relief, weight loss, muscle mass, coolness, a sharper mind, youthfulness if you're old, and maturity if you're young.

I understand evolution very well. I know that language evolves through use. But cliché, slang, profanity, and a string of "umm...you know....like..." with a few words interspaced among the utterances don't seem to me to be an advancement over learning to communicate effectively with consistent, shared grammar and syntax. Cultures also evolve over time, but texting people sitting next to you rather than talking to them seems to me not to convey any competitive advantage. One of the greatest things about being in bands as a kid was learning to interact productively with others. A Zoom jam session was fine during Covid when there was no alternative - but (at least to me) it's just not a substitute for being there.

Video music lessons are popular because they take less time, require no transportation for teacher and/or student, and are often cheaper than live lessons. I've taught undergraduate and graduate students for over 50 years. When we started online programs at my university about 12 years ago, I taught a pair of one semester courses for about 6 years before I retired from the faculty. I was consistently in the top 3 as rated by our students every semester. But I don't think I gave my students the experience and education they would have gotten in person. So I held an open session once a month for any who wanted to come to my office - and I was amazed at how many took advantage of it, some from hours away.

The will to work hard and the belief that it will lead to delayed gratification have been waning among much of the population in the US for years. It's not just the young, and it's not their fault. They're influenced by their parents and their relentless immersion in purportedly instant solutions to problems that simply cannot be solved instantly. Learning to play like Van Halen in 10 easy lessons is just one such problem. The key for me was learning to be happy even though I wasn't completely satisfied, and maintaining the motivation and willingness to pursue goals that seemed not to be immediately achievable. Ahhh - I've been playing for 70 years and I don't suck. But Pasquale Grasso's not looking over his shoulder to see if I'm catching up, either

I appreciate this response and all the thought that went into it. There’s definitely some stuff in here I disagree with and other stuff I would frame very differently.

Its going to take me a minute to get in there though.

Please hold …

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

There’s definitely some stuff in here I disagree with and other stuff I would frame very differently.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=nevershouldhavesoldit;1411229]

Much of what you said is true and very thoughtful..you have lived it.

Yes time changes everything. Even value systems and how people respond to and express them. And the culture clash when different value systems fail to mesh.

Yes we can look back and say things were better many years ago..perhaps..I tend to vote for selective memory.

As for the future..ahh..the mixture of excitement and fear..as with most things new and different. Will kids want to learn about music..want to play an
instrument?..Sure..some will and will excel and find fame and fortune and all that.

Will there be the majority that want to find the "microwave" approach to life?..of course.

For me I have found a great treasure in learning and playing music. I pushed myself . I have been very fortunate to have
studied with a guitar god..and still review his lessons to this day. I realize not everyone has the desire to keep learning beyond a basic level. So it is.

Will Guitar Center be here in 10 years?..Hmm..Two years ago I went to the local GC to look for a SuperStrat. Having not been in this store for years
my surprise was very few known name brands on the walls and only one sales person on the floor.

So not finding the guitar I wanted in the store..the sales guy went online to order it. I thanked him and hoped he enjoys the commission on the sale.
Of course I could have done the same at home..but was glad I got to make someone a bit happier.

I have read many of your posts and enjoyed your take on many of them.

[pamosmusic]

First, I have to say that you're a vanishing breed. You clearly put effort into your thinking, you express yourself clearly, and you use language artfully while staying within the grammatical and syntactic framework that was expected of us over 70 years ago when I started school. You make your points without resorting to profanity or cliché, and you take things seriously without being dogmatic or defensive. I laud and thank you and those responsible for guiding you to your current place in life. You seem to be a wonderful example of what many of us old codgers want to see in our successors. I may not agree with everything you say, but exchanging our viewpoints makes both of us better and stronger.

So I don't know and it would feel weird to comment on something like this, but I'm not sure the traits you describe (whether or not they apply to me) have been particularly common at any point.

On top of which, there are people who express themselves very very well but don't say much of anything substantive (see: the opinion page of any major newspaper) and people who are capable and logical and creative thought, but just don't write very well. My dad is an English teacher and my mom is a librarian -- one thing you learn when you write fairly well is that authoritative writing is the best way to convince people that what you're saying is smart, even if it's not (notice I said "authoritative," rather than "good.")

This thread encompasses so many areas that it's impossible to find commonality in the subtopics. We can't sum up the sociological change of the last 50 years in one paragraph or concept or observation. "When I was a boy", my friends and I played baseball and basketball, rode our bikes, did our homework, went to the movies, listened to records and the radio, went to dances and parties, learned to play musical instruments, read books, etc etc. We spent time alone, but a lot of our activities were in groups. We learned to deal with those whose opinions differed from ours. We put up with bullies and defended the kids who needed help, but we gravitated to groups with like interests and atittudes. I navigated the halls of large public schools without getting into fights, and I managed to get a good education while having a lot of fun.

I work with kids and I can assure you that kids do all this stuff too. They're exactly as social as I was, and I was probably the last generation to graduate high school pre-smart phone. One of my friends got the original iPhone in our senior year. I got my first smart phone in my junior year of college. Kids are almost across the board not allowed phones in school. To the extent those rules are not enforced, you'll often find parental objections are what stands in the way of stronger phone bans. Not kids.

As for the bullying. Yes. Real thing. But also bullying has had a decline that was less dramatic, but reflected the larger downward trend in violent crime over the course of the nineties and oughts. The supplemental online-ness of after school life means that kids are more connected, rather than less connected. They might not be friends with everyone, but they're able to see what other kids are doing. It's easier for them to identify with other kids who aren't like them, and to find those affinity groups you described as well.

I'll also note because of the OP that music education is the bees knees on all these fronts. It puts kids together in a large group. It focuses on teamwork toward a collective result and on teamwork. It gives kids community. I know you don't disagree with any of that stuff, but thought I'd mention it.

As for dealing with people whose opinions differ. That might be true, but it didn't stick. When I think about all the times I've been uncomfortable as a service worker, or all the times I've found myself in wild arguments with people who refused to listen to me, or all the times I've been called profane names on the pages of this very message board (GASP) -- they have something in common. Every single one of those people was much closer to my dad's age than to mine (okay sometimes the message board folks were anonymous, but we won't count them). I don't pretend to have an answer for this one, but I will say this: What older folks sometimes see as an unwillingness of the young to compromise, shows up in the world as an older person's discomfort with encountering an opinion that differs from the range of opinions they've come to expect. Do with that what you will.

I used to run home from school to check the mail for my goodies, like the latest issue of Downbeat and letters from girls I liked and friends I'd made through youth groups etc. Everything happened more slowly than it does today. We worked and saved for the things we wanted - no one put a bicycle or a guitar on a credit card. Things only went on sale after Christmas. TV ads just made you thirsty for 7-Up and stirred a desire for cleaner clothes. They didn't promise that everyone could have luxury goods or a flat stomach immediately, fly to Aruba next week for spring break, or get approved instantly for a loan.

These are structural shifts. I used to walk home from school too. Schools tend to be much further away from neighborhoods and less accessible by walking. That's sprawl and zoning changes. Not kids or parents necessarily. And to the extent it's an individual thing, kids love being independent. Where you find kids uninterested in doing their own thing, you'll find parents uninterested in letting them. I'm a parent so I get it and we'll see how well I do when the time comes. So no judgement on that one. But it's not the kids.

Today, kids as young as 10 are having cosmetic facial surgery to look better on Instagram.

This is moral panic stuff. I don't mean to be dismissive, but with super inflammatory stuff like this, you want to be careful with what you're trying to say and the conclusions you're implying. It's the online version of If It Bleeds, It Leads. Kids have gotten cosmetic surgery for pageants and weird cultural things for a long time. It's always been exceedingly rare. Is it somewhat less exceedingly rare now? No idea, but it's certainly not common, and it's so rare that any fluctuation would be extraordinarily noisy in statistical terms. What conclusion are we drawing from that?

Clear and voluminous data show a dramatic and progressive decline in dating, mating, close friendships, long term relationships, faith in anything, well defined career paths, happiness, stability, resilience, and optimism. There's pressure on everyone today to have followers and to impress with tales and pictures told in snippets.

I would want to see this data. I've seen conflicting data. What does it mean to be dating and mating less? Starting later, fewer partners, fewer encounters? How many of those changes are meaningful? Are those changes bad? I would also caution against drawing self-reinforcing conclusions from this sort of thing. When I was in high school, the panic was about how much sex kids are having and how early. It's hard not to draw the conclusion that older generations will look at the dating habits of younger folks and -- no matter what they see -- conclude that something is badly awry.

Pretty much every ad offers instant something - talent, skill, beauty, health, relief, weight loss, muscle mass, coolness, a sharper mind, youthfulness if you're old, and maturity if you're young.

Sure. Is it worse? Almost certainly. Is it new? No. These are extensions of trends that have been in our culture for a long long time and in hyperdrive since the eighties.

I understand evolution very well. I know that language evolves through use. But cliché, slang, profanity, and a string of "umm...you know....like..." with a few words interspaced among the utterances don't seem to me to be an advancement over learning to communicate effectively with consistent, shared grammar and syntax.

I would caution drawing conclusions like this. I'm the kind of person who thinks faster than I can talk, but won't stop talking to keep everything in order. I stammer at the end of a sentence because I hadn't finished it, but my head was already on the next one. I also cuss like a sailor.

I'm curious. Do you think you're super easy for a 17-yo to communicate with? Do they know how to talk to you? Are they a little intimidated? They might know exactly what they want to say, but struggle to express it to you in a way that you understand. When someone speaks to me in English when it's not their first language, I tend not to draw any conclusions from their moments of searching for the right word, besides the obvious: that they are doing me a kindness by trying to express their thoughts in a way that I understand. Rather than in a way that would be easier for them. Maybe something like that is going on when you speak to someone a half-century younger than you.

I'm young enough that I do okay with the high schoolers in my stilted, old fart sort of way. But part of teaching elementary and middle school kids on their own turf is being okay with saying "hold up what was that again?" and with being giggled at when you do.

Cultures also evolve over time, but texting people sitting next to you rather than talking to them seems to me not to convey any competitive advantage.

I don't know about this one. I've seen kids rag on their friends for texting while they should be talking. I've seen groups of adults sit around with phones, not talking to each other. Where there are phones, there are people inconsiderate about their use.

Video music lessons are popular because they take less time, require no transportation for teacher and/or student, and are often cheaper than live lessons. I've taught undergraduate and graduate students for over 50 years. When we started online programs at my university about 12 years ago, I taught a pair of one semester courses for about 6 years before I retired from the faculty. I was consistently in the top 3 as rated by our students every semester. But I don't think I gave my students the experience and education they would have gotten in person. So I held an open session once a month for any who wanted to come to my office - and I was amazed at how many took advantage of it, some from hours away.

I teach elementary school and middle school band stuff in person. A lot of my lessons are online. Your point is taken. I like it but it's not for everyone. I will also say that I've only had four people ask specifically not to do online lessons. Two were over fifty. Two were under twenty.

The will to work hard and the belief that it will lead to delayed gratification have been waning among much of the population in the US for years. It's not just the young, and it's not their fault. They're influenced by their parents and their relentless immersion in purportedly instant solutions to problems that simply cannot be solved instantly. Learning to play like Van Halen in 10 easy lessons is just one such problem. The key for me was learning to be happy even though I wasn't completely satisfied, and maintaining the motivation and willingness to pursue goals that seemed not to be immediately achievable. Ahhh - I've been playing for 70 years and I don't suck. But Pasquale Grasso's not looking over his shoulder to see if I'm catching up, either

Right.

[sgosnell]

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Cunamara]

Kids today have poor role models, musically and otherwise.

Well, there is a lot to unpack there.

But to speak about music- yeah. Just thinking about people aged, say 13-20. Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran, a few others play guitar of some sort. Almost all the "guitar virtuosos" are grey haired or dying their hair to not look as old as they are. Jazz is nonexistent to most people, let alone people 20 and under. Unlike people in their 60s and 70s+, popular culture mostly doesn't offer a Beatles, a Rolling Stones, a Peter Frampton, a Dylan, etc., to spark the imagination. Heck, the Go Gos showed girls it's cool to play an instrument and make music. Or Joan Jett. Or more recently Tal Wilkenfeld. Maybe the decentralization of music (away from radio, MTV, etc.) and the devolution to algorithms as the main means for musical exposure is a part of this.

My first instrument was cello. I wanted to play guitar and that was the closest thing the school music program had to offer. Plus my parents didn't want me to end up a beatnik and addicted to heroin, which is there they saw the guitar as the inevitable road to perdition. I didn't want to play cello and was an indifferent student at best, the best efforts of Mr. Teufel notwithstanding. That only lasted a couple of years. Now, in my old age, what a lost opportunity to have learned a very beautiful instrument.

And yet- I have some involvement with a community based music school and they have about 400 students, most of whom are under 16- and most of those are getting exposed to playing some jazz. It's the core curriculum to a great extent. The academy does a great job of engaging the kids and, crucially, their parents. It is a community within a community and creates some sense of belonging. Kids in high school are forming bands that play other than hip-hop, pop or metal- and some of those kids are really good. A lot of the students go on to serious music schools. What the future holds economically for them is not clear to me. But when there are role models, not only for music but also for how to be a good member off your community, it pulls kids in. Kids want role models, even if they wouldn't admit it.