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I recently decided to install a new ebony bridge on my Epiphone Zephyr Regent. After all the sanding and everything I was astounded by the sound. It was so much more alive and the back was super resonant against my body (this post is talking strictly about the acoustic voice of the instrument). I thought it was the bridge, but actually it was the fact that I had pulled the pickup off the top for unrelated reason days prior - I had simply not been playing it since this bridge install. I tested my hypothesis that the pickup was affecting the top by playing a few things where the instrument felt very resonant and thunky, and then played the same thing after attaching the pickup back to the top. Without the pickup it sounded and felt so good and with the pickup...those super thunky notes were not as pleasing anymore. The sound was still good, but not nearly as bassy and percussive as before. I play unplugged all the time so those really resonant notes felt super great to play. Before today I really did not realize just how much that inset pickup sucks tone out of the top.
Anyone experience this? Makes me want to buy a floater pickup and just live with the humbucker sized hole in the top and definitely has me rethinking my unattraction to floating pickups.
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05-08-2025 05:42 PM
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Personally, I am an acoustic archtop player at heart. With the exception of my 2005 Super 400ces all my others are acoustics with floaters or no pickup. They are a different animal in many ways. You generally cannot make a Johnny Smith Gibson sound like a Wes L5 or any other built in carved top guitars. These days I am really lazy and never plug in too much just sit and play. It is uncomplicated and frankly like the acoustic piano. Playing a guitar completely acoustically requires you to have a certain amount of technique.
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Could you elaborate on the differences? I've never played a Johnny Smith and an L-5 side by side -- or, probably even within a year or two of one another! -- so I have no audio memory to rely on.
Originally Posted by deacon Mark
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I like the acoustic quality of my acoustic designed guitars, and I add a floater, yes, so I can play amplified. I also like the sound of a humbucker in my laminate 16". There's nothing like that feel; it's a quality all its own. What I have found made a difference is putting little O rings between the pickup surround and the top. It's debatable and I know some don't believe there's a difference, but I feel a difference for sure. To my feel, it's de-coupling the pickup from the top and especially in the attack transients, I feel a definite difference.
You might give it a try. I got mine in the hardware store. Rubber gromets or silicone O rings in a very small size.
Yeah I love the acoustic feel of a guitar. Good luck.
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Yeah I had a similar experience with my modern Broadway. I’ve been looking for a players acoustic archtop for a while but I’m also stuck on 25.5” scale which seems to align with the really expensive models.
One day I’ll go acoustic.
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I've always loved playing acoustically, like deacon Mark said, it's like feeling an acoustic piano in comparison to the amplified tone. I find I play differently unplugged, seems easier to coax the sound out, and enjoy it more.
My experience carries over even with semi-hollow and hollow thinline guitars - I like the sting of the strings in the air!
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Interesting experiment, obviously, you could install a floating pickup over the original humbucker hole. Originally Posted by chris32895
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a long long time ago I had an Epiphone hollowbody (I forget the model, but full size like a Joe Pass or a Broadway), that sounded better with the bridge pickup removed. I kept the neck and just had a hole for where the bridge pickup had been. It was ugly, but I felt like it took some weight away from the top and improved the sound.
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Originally Posted by chris32895
Anything that's screwed or sitting on the top (sound board) will affect the vibrations on it, it's just normal physics. That's why Pat Metheny doesn't like pickguards, or more than one pickup on his archtops. At one point he took the second pickup out of his ES175 and just put tape on top. Rich Severson mounts washers under the pickup rings of his guitars, so the pickups are sort of floating for this very purpose. I play a 2 pickup archtop, but if I had one built, it would have only one for this very reason. I know someone will argue this point, but it's been proven time after time. Somehow this principle doesn't apply to solid bodies, but there's other variables to consider.
Cheers,
Arnie...
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For that scale length vintage Epiphone acoustics are the way to go. There’s a lot more value to be had compared to the 25.5” Gibsons. Even the lower end models can be great acoustic guitars. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Is there a website that breaks down the dichotomy of each model? I've been looking at them for at least a year and I'm still not sure if Broadway, Emperor or Triumph is the top of the line, and then there is the Devon, Olypmpic, Deluxe, Blackstone, Byron. Gibson knocked this out of the park with their ES-xxx system.
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Gibson did it pretty well with the ES guitars, but the L line numbering is all over the place. LOL
The best, most detailed online breakdown of the models is on Felix Wiedler’s site.
NY Epi Reg - The Unofficial New York Epiphone Registry
The order of the most common solid wood 17 3/8” models is Triumph < Broadway < DeLuxe. The DeLuxe being Epiphine’s competitor to the L-5. Emperor being bigger was essentially the counterpoint to the Super 400.
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I'm not surprised that it sounds better unplugged without the pickup weighing down the top. Laminated tops can sound pretty good acoustically. Originally Posted by chris32895
I'd say that if your main thing is playing acoustically and you only plug in occasionally, get a decent (or better) acoustic archtop and put either a floater or something removable such as a Krivo on it. But if you don't like those kinds of electric sounds and playing electrically is more than just an afterthought to you, you're probably best off with separate acoustic and electric guitars. I spent some time trying out carved tops with floaters, with the idea of having one guitar that worked equally well as an acoustic and an electric, but I found that I strongly prefer set-in pickups for my electric sound, which took the idea of one guitar for both acoustic and electric uses off the table for me.
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Even though this book has much information that you may not care about, i.e. banjos, lap steels, etc., it has really detailed descriptions of the entire Epiphone archtop line through the 1950's. Also some beautiful color plates of rare Epiphone archtops.
Epiphone: The House of Stathopoulo - Jim Fisch; L.B. Fred: 9780825614538 - AbeBooks
I adore my '53 Triumph Regent. It has no pickup. I do gig with it occasionally and just play into a microphone. It works well for smaller, intimate venues. In my experience, the Triumph/Broadway/Deluxe guitars CAN have much in common besides ornamentation/trim, much like the L-7/L-5 Gibsons. The Triumphs seem to go for a little less as there are more out there and were considered the entry level of the "professional" line up. Make no mistake, though, some of the lower line Spartan, Olympic guitars can be really fine guitars.
I notice TRM has a Broadway Regent on the market, and if I wasn't so in love with my Triumph Regent I'd be all over it.
Last edited by SierraTango; 05-09-2025 at 12:18 PM. Reason: change link
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I'm always checking out the TRM instagram page, it's like a constantly updating dream board.
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I really like electric archtops. Mostly Gibsons. L5 CES. ES175.
I also really like acoustic. Hand carved. Benedetto pattern. Yunzhi and Wu which were once affordable. That time is likely past.
Currently I'm playing my only 'tweener' quite a bit. A carved Yunzhi with a built in Armstrong 12 pole. Less a compromise for either purpose than you would think.
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You could even borrow a page from Pat Metheny's book and cover the pickup hole with some gaffer tape. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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FWIW, Pat's ES-175 was originally a one pickup model. In woodshop in his high school, he cut the bridge pickup hole into the top and installed a switch and two more pots. He quickly realized he did not like the sound of the bridge pickup and ended up taking it back out, slapping some gaffer tape over the hole. I think it's also a demonstration of the difference between professional caliber musicians and amateurs like myself. For a top level pro, the guitar is a tool of musical expression and that is its primary value. For an amateur, the guitar itself is an object of fascination and intrinsically valued. Originally Posted by arnie65
Any guitar with a pickup cut into the top is not intended to be an acoustic instrument. There is simply too much mass screwed into the top, damping its response to vibrations. Tal Farlow once observed in an interview that "what's good for the electric sound of the guitar is bad for the acoustic sound and vice versa." I have used the Ren Wall trick on my ES-175D, as described above; I would say there was a positive difference but it was fairly subtle. The mass of the pickup is still screwed into the top, but the pickup ring is not in contact with the top except at the corners. The gap is tiny in my case, you'd have trouble slipping a .010 string into the gap. It is not noticeable to the casual glance.
Played through an amplifier, the ES-175 is more practical at gig volume than my carvetop 17" guitar with a floating humbucker. The carvetop is a feedback machine and amplifies a bit unevenly up and down the neck. Played acoustically, the ES-175 has a small quiet voice adequate for practicing on the couch in a quiet room. On the other hand, the carvetop has a wonderful acoustic voice that even works well played fingerstyle.
What I am getting around to is that I agree with Tal. I think the needs of amplification versus the needs of acoustic performance are ultimately diametrically opposed. The compromise of an acoustic instrument with a floating pickup doesn't quite work for either in an equal way. The construction of the instrument ultimately has to be biased one way or the other. The OP's experience is a wonderful demonstration of this.
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TRM, that's true. Also, The Emperor is known as the 'horn killer'. I wanted a prewar acoustic archtop and got a deal on a '36. It's incredible. Also, the Gibson L7 can sometimes be found that are amazing instruments worthy of consideration. Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
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Originally Posted by Cunamara
Think it's more personality. He probably doesn't take care of his other stuff either (car, house, et al). Just a guess.
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Nah, it was just a used guitar at the time and adding a bridge pickup was a normal thing to do back in the day. Everything wasn’t always the way it is right now. Originally Posted by Spook410
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