Replacement tuners - 18:1 or 21:1?

**buduranus2** · 05-01-2025, 03:11 PM

I need to replace the tuners on one of my guitars. Is there any incremental benefit to 21:1 over 18:1? Thanks.

**Cunamara** · 05-01-2025, 03:28 PM

21:1 allows easier fine tuning, 18:1 allows getting up to pitch faster. I would stay with 18:1 myself because I am used to the feel.

**buduranus2** · 05-01-2025, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Cunamara

21:1 allows easier fine tuning, 18:1 allows getting up to pitch faster. I would stay with 18:1 myself because I am used to the feel.

Thanks for your reply. I'm upgrading from cheap Gotoh-type so anything would be an improvement. My repairman will install them and new strings. After that I will never change the strings. (The deader the better.) All that said, is 21:1 too much of a good thing or if I'm gonna go then go all the way?

**AllanAllen** · 05-01-2025, 04:32 PM

I just looked it up, my #1 guitar has 18:1 and I’ve never wished for more precision.

**gitman** · 05-01-2025, 04:33 PM

Gotoh tuners of the 510 rage are superb, regardless of their specific gear ratio. I have them on many of my guitars and the difference between the 21:1 and 18:1 is barely noticeable. A well lubricated nut makes a BIG difference though ... Tuning instability is never an issue with these machines.

**jads57** · 05-01-2025, 04:45 PM

So the Gotoh 510 tuners are superb! But the guitar that stays in tune best is my Carvin Headless Holdsworth with a J Custom bridge.
Its basically a Steinberger copy.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 05-01-2025, 04:46 PM

The ratio is not the sole determinant of tuning sensitivity, ease, and accuracy. The diameter of the post is a critical factor because the thicker it is, the more string is wrapped around it with each full turn. For example, Gotoh SGS510Z tuners have a 6 mm shaft diameter and Gotoh SD90/91s have a 6.35 mm shaft. The concavity in the shaft at the string hole is also deeper on the SGS510Z. So with the same tuning ratio, the larger shaft on the SD90/91s will tighten the string more per turn than the SGS520Zs.

The other factor in tuning ease and accuracy is the size of the button. The wider it is, the more leverage you have and the more finely you can control how much you turn it. The linear distance of one full turn of the button can be twice as long with a wide button.

**deacon Mark** · 05-01-2025, 05:53 PM

I think the ratio of Shallers 18-1 M6 some the best ever work fine. I think the earlier version from years ago are only 12-1. I know I have them on the Barkers and Hollenbeck and they tune wonderfully they are probably 12-1

**buduranus2** · 05-01-2025, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by gitman

Gotoh tuners of the 510 rage are superb, regardless of their specific gear ratio. I have them on many of my guitars and the difference between the 21:1 and 18:1 is barely noticeable. A well lubricated nut makes a BIG difference though ... Tuning instability is never an issue with these machines.

Yeah, Gotoh 510's. I'll have him make a bone nut while he's got it.

Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit

The other factor in tuning ease and accuracy is the size of the button. The wider it is, the more leverage you have and the more finely you can control how much you turn it. The linear distance of one full turn of the button can be twice as long with a wide button.

Well, there you have it. The tuners I'm considering have "butterfly" buttons. Besides, on further consideration, the difference between 18:1 and 21:1 is just over 14%. Not much of a difference in the overall scheme of things. I'm having TI Benson 12's installed. From experience they're pretty well-behaved once they settle in.

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 05-02-2025, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by buduranus2

Besides, on further consideration, the difference between 18:1 and 21:1 is just over 14%. Not much of a difference in the overall scheme of things

Actually, it is. The higher ratio in your example means that it takes 3 more full turns of the button to rotate the shaft one full turn. Those 3 additional turns mean finer control for easier precision tuning, assuming the same shaft diameter where the string wraps.

There are other factors affecting this. The number of teeth on the tuning gears and how well they mesh affect the smoothness and precision of the tuning shaft’s control over the main shaft. So do the surface finishes on the moving parts, the tolerances in dimensional accuracy, the materials and design of the mechanism, etc. How well the shafts (both the button shaft and the string post) are finished and supported is another factor in the feel, smoothness, stability, and precision of tuning.

You’ll get much better tuning with a well designed, well made 18:1 tuner with minimal free play and great stability than you will with a loose, poorly finished 21:1 tuner. Even a very high quality 12:1 is superior to a cheap crappy one with a higher ratio.

**pingu** · 05-02-2025, 08:37 AM

I have Gotoh 510 on my ibanez

Replacement tuners - 18:1 or 21:1?-img_6133-jpg

best tuners I ever tuned

don’t know the ratio , sorry
fine tho , whatever it is

**Tom Karol** · 05-02-2025, 09:22 AM

I've had Grovers, Schallers, Gotohs, and locking Sperzels on various guitars - all good, but my new favorites are these (19-1): https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...iABEgKZDPD_BwE

**John A.** · 05-02-2025, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by buduranus2

Thanks for your reply. I'm upgrading from cheap Gotoh-type so anything would be an improvement. My repairman will install them and new strings. After that I will never change the strings. (The deader the better.) All that said, is 21:1 too much of a good thing or if I'm gonna go then go all the way?

I'm skeptical that anything would be an improvement. I've had a lot of different tuners, and my experience is that unless they're broken all sealed diecast tuners are pretty much the same. One can have preferences about things locking vs non-locking or ratio, appearance, etc., but functionally they're all good. I've no name sealed tuners on cheap guitars, and they were great. I have had brand name sealed tuners on guitars of various prices, and they were great, too. I've never had a bad sealed tuner (unless it was broken) of any brand.

**buduranus2** · 05-02-2025, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

I'm skeptical that anything would be an improvement. I've had a lot of different tuners, and my experience is that unless they're broken all sealed diecast tuners are pretty much the same. One can have preferences about things locking vs non-locking or ratio, appearance, etc., but functionally they're all good. I've no name sealed tuners on cheap guitars, and they were great. I have had brand name sealed tuners on guitars of various prices, and they were great, too. I've never had a bad sealed tuner (unless it was broken) of any brand.

Two of them are stripped. Otherwise I wouldn't replace them.

**John A.** · 05-02-2025, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

I've had Grovers, Schallers, Gotohs, and locking Sperzels on various guitars - all good, but my new favorites are these (19-1): https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...iABEgKZDPD_BwE

Yeah, I have a set of those on one of my guitars that replaced the stock vintage-style Klusons copies (made by Gotoh, as it happens) it came with. They're great, and fit the smaller hole and bushings. [while I do think that all sealed tuners are basically the same, I don't thank is true of vintage Kluson style tuners).

**lammie200** · 05-03-2025, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

I've had Grovers, Schallers, Gotohs, and locking Sperzels on various guitars - all good, but my new favorites are these (19-1): https://www.stewmac.com/parts-and-ha...iABEgKZDPD_BwE

Pretty much the same story although I don’t think I ever tried Sperzels. Kluson Revolution tuners with press-in bushings are my favorites. I like the locking version. Still lightweight for what they are.