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Neck-mount floating humbuckers are typically right at the end of the fingerboard. Body-mount & pickguard floaters seem to be about an inch from the end (or a virtual fret position?)
Less jazzy guitars seem to target the location of the 24th fret. People with 24-fret necks can't do that.
I read a modern luthier's complaint about 24th fret PU placement on Les Paul, but he seemed to be in the minority.
How much does it matter for a neck-only PU archtop?
I have one project guitar getting a new guard & side-mount floater, so the position isn't committed yet (have options).
A 2nd guitar has a Kent Armstrong neck-mount HB floater that is about 1-3/8" high (vertically). That guitar is having a 1929Pickguards McCarty (neck only) added.
A friend suggested keeping the existing floater HB which has volume pot only and an end pin jack. The McCarty has a guard-mounted jack.
I won't know how practical/possible this will be until I have everything in my hands.
The existing PG probably is in the way...the existing wiring? Don't know yet.
Armstrong suggests wiring some of his jazz PU's directly to a jack, no V or T. I have a Krivo that's normal for...not ideal, but usable.
It it all fits, the McCarty SC PU would be at roughly 2" from end of fingerboard.
Ideas are cheap.
My gut feeling is there is some positioning flexibility but don't know what's sacrificed by doing this. It's a long way from the bridge! The ES-150's with a (P-13?) PU somewhere in the middle seem to be less loved & lower-priced.
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04-07-2025 12:02 PM
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I like the pickup as close to the end of the fingerboard as possible. I only want a volume pot, no tone control the amp can work the tone. I need something to be able to turn the volume up and down easy not at the amp, so no direct wiring. I think ideally if already present the jack in the tailpiece end is the best. If you have a vintage guitar and do not want to modify anything then pickguard jack is ok or some other set up but that is less user friendly. The warmest sounds come from the pickup being as close to fingerboard. At 20 fret neck allows even farther away from bridge, again that is warmer sound.
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I agree...just wondered how critical...I guess it depends & is subjective.
The McCarty addition is, in principle, possible supposedly by simply replacing the existing PG (I suppose on what was originally an acoustic archtop.
I will see what is physically possible, whether it looks absurd, and if it's dumber and harder than what came to me in a dream.
Two other project ideas were not physically possible. If I realize that before doing any harm, good for me.
Both guitars were inexpensive but have potential to be unique, something I have come to appreciate.
The one can accommodate a fretboard end side tab thin PU.
The one with either McCarty replica single either added or replacing will have either HB or SC at fretboard end, depending on logistics, & installation is minimally invasive/reversible. The cosmetics are the greatest risk.
Thank you.
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Actually, a great many "jazzy" guitars have the pickup at at the same position as a LP (my guess would be most). For example, almost all Gibson semis and archtops do, as well as other brands based on those designs. You can't really judge neck pickup placement by the gap between the pickup and the end of the neck because different guitars have different numbers of frets and/or points that stick out (e.g., L-5's). For example, LP, 335, and ES-175 all have the neck in the same spot (even though there's more space between the neck and pickup on a 175, which has fewer frets), and L-5 is very close (L-4 is right up against the neck). It's really about distance from the bridge
Originally Posted by murrayatuptown
IME, having the neck pickup at the "LP" spot vs right up against the neck on 20-fret guitar is a fairly subtle difference. To my ears it makes less difference than moving the neck more toward the bridge does (e.g., as on an Ibanez JP20 or a Hofner with 24 frets). As the pickup moves more toward the middle of the guitar, it sounds more like the middle pickup on a 3-pickup guitar and less like a neck pickup. I find the difference very noticeable, and it's not my thing (I had a 24-fret guitar, and can't see myself ever getting another) Originally Posted by murrayatuptown
To my tastes, the best sound is at that 24th fret (LP) spot or slightly further from the bridge/closer to the headstock. Clearance permitting that's where I would want any neck pickup to be. If there isn't enough clearance and the pickup can only fit closer to the bridge, the guitar is not for me. FWIW, I also like tone controls. Originally Posted by murrayatuptown
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Generally I like the neck pickup to be as close to the end of the fingerboard as possible, at least on 20 or 22 fret instruments.
I've owned 24 fret guitars and while they could produce some good sounds, there was a noticeable hint of that bridge pickup 'sheen' in the sound of the neck pickup that I didn't overly like.
I hear that 'sheen' strongly when I watch clips the Ibanez JP20 - it's not a sound I particularly want in a jazz guitar.
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A few things to consider;
The 24th node applies to open strings only. When a string is fretted the node changes.
The distance from the nut where you pick/pluck a string may have greater influence on tone than the position of the neck PU. Some pickups sound better when adjusted close to the strings. Sometimes the neck pickup would interfere with the picking sweet spot, i.e. you'll hit the pickup with your pick or fingers and would have to pick behind the PU, closer to the bridge (which may have a negative influence on tone and feel). When there's a gap between the PU and the neck, we are able to pick the strings in that gap.
The width of the gap depends not only on the node, but also on the number of frets as well as the size of the neck PU (compare a full size humbucker vs a Tele neck PU).
A humbucker got two coils inside. If you would measure the node relative to the adjustable pole screws, there would be a different result if you would flip the PU 180 degrees. Also pay attention to the PU tilt (if the PU leans forward or backwards).
The scale (e.g 25.5" vs 24.75") as well as the bridge type (e.g ToM or wooden bridge) is going to influence the ideal position of the neck PU.
In conclusion: There are many factors other than the "node" that plays a part in this equation. Most importantly, we don't want the PU to interfere with the picking sweet spot. Identify the sweet spot when playing unplugged.
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Generally, the closer to the end of the string, the brighter the sound. But small differences in distance give small differences in tone. As you fret further up the neck, the ratio changes, and if you're fretting at the 18th fret or higher and the pickup is about where the 22d fret would be, the tone is going to be a little bright because it's close to the end of the speaking portion of the string. I don't think there is an ideal place to put the pickup, because it depends highly on how and where the guitar is played, and on the taste of the player. For me, at the end of the fretboard is best, but I can't speak for anyone else.
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Maybe a topic for the Builders section?
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Thank you, SG. Thank you, WS. Originally Posted by Woody Sound
I'm just modifying/manipulating an existing guitar. It's a good thing I don't build. Measure three times, never cut...changed mind twice.
I was implicitly seeking experiential opinions rather than how to advice.
In the end, a local luthier needs to put food on the table & I'll have strong enough opinions to argue what I am paying for.
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When the pickup is near midpoint of the fret and bridge it will tend to pick up more of the fundamental. When it’s located off-center it will pickup up increasing harmonic content, sounding brighter. So the harmonic content changes depending on where the string is fretted. I don’t think a slight change in location of the neck pickup would have much of an effect when you are fretting below about the 10th fret. But when you are fretting above the 14th fret, mounting the pickup at the end of fretboard might produce a *brighter* tone than if it were located an inch or so toward the bridge, as a result of this effect.
I haven’t experimented with this—I’m just speculating based on physics. I think Tim Lerch has done so on his Gibson L-7C. You can see the evidence on his pickguard! He said he preferred the tone with it spaced a bit away from the end of the fretboard.
My L-7 has a similar pickup mounted at the end of the fretboard, but since there’s no cutaway I don’t use the frets where the effect might be most prominent.Last edited by KirkP; 04-10-2025 at 05:48 PM.
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Thank you.
If I were going to experiment with physics, I might try puttying or clamping a wired pickup and a piezo (two experiments) on a headstock just to see what happens. Keeps me off the street.
I used a spectrum analyzer on my phone to choose piezo parking spots on one guitar. Planning on ToneDextering it anyway.
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For experimenting, one way is to move a loose pickup above the strings. Open tuning or an extra hand.
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With a DeArmond Rhythm Chief, it's easy enough to move the pickup along the mounting rod and hear how the sound changes. Works best with a monkey-on-a-stick, because it allows longer range of movement. I've tried mine up and down the length of the rod, and have settled on putting it up against the fingerboard. Works for me, because I don't spend a lot of time fretting much above the 12th fret. It happens, but not enough to convince me to move the pickup.
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If you want the warmest sound possible, the physics is very simple. The pickup should be exactly at the midpoint of the *vibrating* part of the string. For an open plucked string, that would be exactly at the 12th fret, unfortunately. For a string plucked at the 12th fret, it would be exactly where the 24th fret would be. If you spend most of your time at or around the 12th fret, then a pickup where the 24th fret would be is in exactly the right place. The best strategy is to figure out the fret where you spend most of your time, determine the midpoint between that fret and the bridge, and place your pickup as close to that midpoint as possible. For most people that's going to be as close to the end of the fretboard as practical.
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Ain't nothin' simple. A vibrating string has several modes of vibration, some of which are stationary at the halfway point and some of which are stationary elsewhere. And of course with a guitar string the length between the stopping fret and the bridge changes all the time depending on the note you're playing. Experimentation over time led certain manufacturers, Gibson in particular, to position the polepieces of the neck pickup about where the 24th fret would be - this is the Les Paul/ES335/ES175 position. For a 22-fret guitar (Les Paul, ES-335) this position is just about at the end of the fingerboard - but the ES-175 has a 19- or 20-fret fingerboard and has the pickup a bit removed from the end of the fingerboard to be at approximately the LP location. Other guitars have the neck pickup in a different location - the L5/Super400/L4 tend to have the neck pickup at the end of the fingerboard, but they have 20-fret fingerboards, so their pickups are not in the same relative locations as the LPs, they're further away from the bridge. Originally Posted by strumcat
My point is, the end of the fingerboard is not a good reference for pickup placement, since the fingerboard can be any length at all, and the end of the fingerboard after the last fret can vary as well. You should measure from some fixed location, like the bridge or the nut. But it's all approximations anyway, since the vibrating length of the string is changing with the note being played on that string. Many of these guitars (LP, ES-335, ES-175, L5, Super 400, L4) sound great in the right hands. I don't think there is a "correct" location for the neck pickup except that it's somewhere near the neck.
None of which helps the OP, who seemed to be looking for advice on where to put the pickup. Based on what's been done in the past, I'd say it's somewhere between and including the end of the fingerboard and about where the 24th fret would be. But wherever it is it will just be an approximation. If you mounted the pickup on the pickguard instead of on the neck you could move it around rather easily if you'd like to experiment.
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Oh, it all helps! I told young people at work my middle initial 'was' t.m.i.
More info is better for me.
There are a couple guitar projects swirling in my thoughts, and both will have pickguard-mounted pickups.
Also I previously said something crazy about trying a pickup and piezo temporarily on headstock as an experiment. Not sure why I wrote pickup because there are no strings there for magnetic pickup. That was a half-thought.
Thanks, all.
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L-5 and S400 have “Cupid’s bows” + a little gap, which pushes the pickup back almost to the 24th fret spot. Only the L4 is truly butted up against the neck, but … Originally Posted by dconeill
Yes, exactly. Originally Posted by dconeill
I find it interesting that the L4 is the one true exception. I wonder why they did it that way. Maybe just to mess with all of us geeks looking for an apples to apples comparison between carved and laminated tops Originally Posted by dconeill
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Edit: there’s also the 775 and JP’s custom 175, so the L4 is not the only exception, but I still think they’re messin’ with us
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You might have missed the first few words of my message: "If you want the warmest sound possible..."
The warmest sound of a vibrating string is always exactly at its midpoint of vibration. That's where the center of the fundamental anti-node is located, with the highest amplitude of the lowest frequency. The even-numbered (higher octave) harmonics have nodes, or silent spots, there, though you will get a little of the odd-numbered harmonics.
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I got you. I am free to improvise with hardware (PU's not attached since subjective success is almost assured). I tend to not take "No" for an answer anyway.
Thanks
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Yes, but the relationship from any given fretted note to the pickup polepiece location remains consistent with any other instrument that has a pickup located at that "24th fret node". Likewise, those relationships are inconsistent with instruments that have the pickup in a different location. (Scale length notwithstanding) Originally Posted by JCat
iow, when people talk about the magic sauce that having the neck pickup located at the "24th fret node" imparts, they're not talking about it because it's located at the octave node of the open strings; they're talking about it because that pickup location is iconic and responsible for so many archetypal guitar sounds we all know...and that applies to any note anywhere on the fretboard.
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OK, and I also said Originally Posted by Bob_Ross
The response (sound and feel) changes as we pick closer to the bridge; the tone gets brighter, the attack gets more percussive and the strings feel a bit tighter. This has nothing to do with the pickup location, it's just about string mechanics. Originally Posted by JCat
Now assume a guitar that sounds and feels great when plucked near the 24th node, there's just this one problem: Someone put a pickup right under the strings in this very spot.
-Why does it matter? you may ask
Well, it depend on what pickup there is;
Not all pickups are height adjustable and therefore cannot be lowered (e.g a dogear P-90),
Some height adjustable pickups are limited by design and cannot be lowered much (e.g a Gibson SG or a Gibson LP),
Many pickups are microphonic to some degree and make a click sound when hit by a pick,
Some pickups become charged with static electricity that would discharge and make a noise when touched by your picking hand,
Some pickups are weak or for other reasons sound better when adjusted close to the strings. Then it's not possible to pick/pluck right above the PU without hitting it.
Here's an example that everyone can understand:
If you ever had a Stratocaster where the middle PU was adjusted too close to the strings, you would know what it feels and sounds like. You simply have to lower that pickup to get it out of the way. Fortunately a well balanced Strat PU set sounds best when the PUs are near flush with the scratchplate and then there's no issue.
Some sweet archtops got sweet vintage pickups, weak and without means to lower the neck PU. We don't want string height and action to be limited by the neck PU, in other words; We don't want to raise the strings just for the purpose of clearing the PU! So when the PU is located at the 24th node we're sometimes forced to pick and pluck in front of (when possible) or behind that 24th node, which may not be ideal.
Finally, it's also about the balance of the guitar and where it feels most natural/comfortable to position your picking hand. Hopefully there won't be a pickup interfering with your hand in that spot.
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