Operation on open heart - New pickups and wiring in a Stanford guitar

[rojaros]

I like this guitar: Stanford Fatboy 75-2 - an ES175 copy (well, yes, not exactly). Nice size, beautiful to look at, and very playable, great workmanship, neck, frets, everything fits. Well, not quite everything. Pickups are reasonably OK from the factory, but the wiring is completely uninsulated, which then makes the guitar an antenna for unpleasant interference.

Recently I was able to get my hands on a set of Schaller Golden Fifties pickups, and I decided to install them in the Stanford and take the opportunity to use decent potentiometers, push-pull for series/parallel for the neck pickup and all cables shielded, and switches, potentiometers and output sockets wrapped in aluminium foil.

The result is very pleasing; noise is reduced to the rest that is always there, but it's not even comparable to before. The pickups sound wonderful; little compression, silky highs, balanced sound, compact, defined bass and much more string separation in chords. I'm very satisfied.

Of course, I don't know how it would sound with less shielding, and I probably will never know, because I won't go through such a mega-project again (took me many, many hours), but I'm very happy with the result.

[Gladders]

You're a brave man. I'm not sure I would undertake that. I'm glad your pleased with the result.

I can't see your pictures - are they working for you?

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

[rojaros]

At least I had totally underestimated the time and effort it will take. I took me more than three times as long - a full long day. That's why I think I will never attempt to repeat this operation (though one never knows )

I can see the pictures in this post...

[Cunamara]

I can see the photos as well (using a web browser on my iPad, rather than the Tapatalk app).

Congratulations on this! I have never tried changing the electronics on an archtop guitar where they're installed in the top along with the controls, so you have to work through the F holes and the pickup holes to access anything. Seems like more frustration than I'd want; fishing wires through a Telecaster body is bad enough. The archtop on which I have installed pickups has a floater, so you just have to take off the pickguard to access everything; child's play by comparison.

After all that work, I'm glad it turned out sounding good and to your satisfaction! It is an attractive looking guitar.

What, if I may ask, is the 10 string beast in the background?

[sgosnell]

Any DIY project will take three times as long, and cost 4 or more times as much, as initially estimated, and those are conservative numbers. I say this speaking from long experience. I don't recall ever finishing earlier or cheaper, and I've been working on projects of one kind or another for probably 65 years. I got started young.

[Herbie]

Gorgeous looking guitar!
(Except I like the pickups covered…)

Changing the pickups in a jazzbox is psycologically and philosophically educating experience. A bit like anger management lesson!

Next time it is much faster snd easier because now You have learned it!

[Gladders]

Using the web browser I can see then. Lovely looking guitar.

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

[rojaros]

...

After all that work, I'm glad it turned out sounding good and to your satisfaction! It is an attractive looking guitar.



What, if I may ask, is the 10 string beast in the background?

There are incredibly many details that can go wrong or require some kind of going backwards and figuring it out how to do better. One of the most difficult aspect is getting the new wiring and the pots back to where they belong, because the wires to pull them back tend to hopelessly tangle. Also reinstalling such a trivial thing like the ground wire back to the string holder along took with all the complications an extra hour... fortunately I didn't panic, which makes, as a rule, the things even worse.

The "ten string beast" is exactly that: A 10-string classical guitar (in "baroque tuning") made by K. Yairi 1982 in Japan. A beautiful guitar, and still going strong.

[rojaros]

Update:

I'm still very content with the result of my 'surgery'. Now that the Thomastik Flatwounds have settled the guitar plays and sounds very nicely, and the possibility of switching the neck PU to parallel coils is something I quite like, especially in conjunction with the bridge PU and a little roll back of the tone pot.

I have ordered some covers for the PUs and I'm curious if they change the tone a lot and how. I'll report.

[Al Haig]

Very nice. It's always good when you do a nice job with the electronics and have everything squared away. Imo, it's essential for getting your guitar feeling nice.

[rojaros]

I just installed aftermarket covers for the pickups. I like the looks, but the pickups became much more microphonic; I think I'm not going to keep the covers. Fortunately it is quite easy to install them and also to remove them, I didn't even solder them, just pressed them on tightly and bent them a bit inward, so that they stay in place.

Interestingly also the sound changed a bit - it became a bit less detailed and with less high frequency, not even in a bad way, maybe even more typical what one knows from older jazz guitars with humbuckers...

[chris32895]

Question, how do you go about shielding the electronics in an archtop, anyways?

[Cunamara]

If you don't want microphonics (as per the original PAF, which was also microphonic), then you need to pot the pickups. This is usually done with wax, of course, and there is an art to it to keep the hot wax from distorting the pickup flatwork. I've never tried this myself. I suspect that the removal of pickup covers from old PAF pickups probably was originally to stop the ticking of picks on the cover while playing. Also, in high volume situations you can get squealing between the pickup cover and the pickup, if unpotted, which of course goes away if the cover is removed.

I have read that a couple dabs of silicone sealant between the underside of the covers and the top of the pickup bobbins will do the same thing, but I've never tried that either. Jack Zucker had some PAF style pickups wax potted and noted that this did change the tone in addition to just having the covers on them. Less acoustic, more electric.

[sgosnell]

For replacing the controls and jack in an archtop, I prefer something like this:
https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tool...12ef72893909c5

I made my own from a wire clotheshanger, which I think works just as well. Running wires/strings/tubing/whatever through the holes to the shafts is janky at best, no matter what is used. I did it that way for a time, and was never happy. Now it's a piece of cake, takes only a few minutes for everything. For pulling the output jack into place I use a 1/4" to 1/8" adapter, with the outer plastic removed so it fits through the hole easily, and an old audio cable with a 1/8" (3.5mm) plug on the end, inserted into the adapter. Thread the cable through the hole where the jack will go, bring it out through a pickup hole, insert the adapter into the jack, the cable into the adapter, and it pulls into place easily. That's my first thing to install, then the pots, then the pickup(s). Using the right tools, it takes me maybe 5 minutes to install everything if I'm in a hurry.

[sgosnell]

Question, how do you go about shielding the electronics in an archtop, anyways?

I don't even try. It's something that sort of sounds good in theory, but impossible to actually do well enough to make it worth the time and effort. Shielding even a solid-body is mostly wasted effort, because the EMF interference can always get in from the front. It might help a little in some instances, but it's a questionable use of time and resources, IMO.

[rojaros]

Question, how do you go about shielding the electronics in an archtop, anyways?

I just reproduced the circuit that was there but with shielded cables; replaced the potentiometers and the output jack with better ones; took care to have only one place where all the shielding are connected to ground to avoid loops and wrapped the potentiometers in aluminium foils, which are touching the housing at the shaft so that they are hold firmly when the potentiometers are tightened to the top. (I'm not sure if I express it clearly in English).

All in all the result is very pleasing. The guitar is as quiet as my best solid body guitars with humbuckers.

As to the pickup covers I think I will remove them at the next occasion when I'll change the strings. Don't want to unwind them again; did it already two times and my gut feeling is, they will break at the tuners when I do it again.

[chris32895]

I just reproduced the circuit that was there but with shielded cables; replaced the potentiometers and the output jack with better ones; took care to have only one place where all the shielding are connected to ground to avoid loops and wrapped the potentiometers in aluminium foils, which are touching the housing at the shaft so that they are hold firmly when the potentiometers are tightened to the top. (I'm not sure if I express it clearly in English).

All in all the result is very pleasing. The guitar is as quiet as my best solid body guitars with humbuckers.

As to the pickup covers I think I will remove them at the next occasion when I'll change the strings. Don't want to unwind them again; did it already two times and my gut feeling is, they will break at the tuners when I do it again.

Any chance you have a link for that shielded cable?

[rojaros]

Sure:
Rockinger Kabel, abgeschirmt | Buchsen, Kabel | Elektrik, Knopfe | Parts | Rockinger Guitars

It's the shielded cable with one lead.

But I have also used cables from the cheapest HiFi RCA connector-cables for stereo systems. If they are good enough for HiFi they are certainly good enough for a guitar with it's smaller bandwidth.

Personally I'm not a believer in al these cable myths; as long as the capacitance and the resistance of the cable states with reasonable limits you can take any cable, especially between the potentiometers, where the cables are relatively short, IMHO.

[chris32895]

Sure:
Rockinger Kabel, abgeschirmt | Buchsen, Kabel | Elektrik, Knopfe | Parts | Rockinger Guitars

It's the shielded cable with one lead.

But I have also used cables from the cheapest HiFi RCA connector-cables for stereo systems. If they are good enough for HiFi they are certainly good enough for a guitar with it's smaller bandwidth.

Personally I'm not a believer in al these cable myths; as long as the capacitance and the resistance of the cable states with reasonable limits you can take any cable, especially between the potentiometers, where the cables are relatively short, IMHO.

I see, when you said shielded I thought maybe you meant something like this:

https://www.stewmac.com/electronics/...IaAjDbEALw_wcB

Also, could you explain your process behind using aluminum foil to shield the pots and jack and such? I've never heard to that before. Is it just regular aluminum foil like from the kitchen?

[arnie65]

Nice guitar, my buddy bought one and I was amazed when I played it, I liked it much better than an expensive Eastman he has.
They are built to German specs in China, but sent back to Germany for QC, since it is a German company. I thought the original pickups sounded ok...





Cheers,
Arnie..

[rojaros]

Also, could you explain your process behind using aluminum foil to shield the pots and jack and such? I've never heard to that before. Is it just regular aluminum foil like from the kitchen?

Well, the same idea as with shielded cables: you have a electrically shielded cavity around the pots and jack and that potentially diminishes some of the stray interferences (not all, but the guitar is now so quiet that I think, all together does its job).

Yes its the good ole kitchen aluminium foil.

I thought the original pickups sounded ok...

Yes, they sound absolutely OK, but the Schaller Golden 50ties have finer separation and sound less like your plain electric guitar.

much better than an expensive Eastman

I recently tried an Eastman Jazzbox and an Eastman T486 (ES-335 ish) and I also thought that Stanford did a better job...

[sgosnell]

Shielded cable is worthwhile, and can make a difference. But putting aluminum foil over a potentiometer that already has a metal case is a waste of aluminum and of time. Bare (unshielded) wire can act as an antenna and pick up EMF noise, so shielding it is a good idea, my post above was only addressing shielding the entire inside of the body. But the aluminum foil shouldn't hurt anything, as long as it doesn't short anything out, and it's very easy to short potentiometer terminals with it. If it works, it's not worth going inside again.

[rojaros]

... putting aluminum foil over a potentiometer that already has a metal case is a waste of aluminum...

Well, that's quite obvious; the aim was not to shield the shielding casing of the potentiometers but the whole think outside the casing with the terminals laying bare. Of course I put insulating tape around any part that could be shorted, and wrapped aluminium foil around that. The same with the output jack (which doesn't have a casing). It didn't hurt to just do it along with the necessary work I did anyway.

[sgosnell]

Like I said, it didn't hurt. I just don't believe that the terminals themselves can pick up much EMF interference. But I can't argue if someone wants to go to those extremes, it's just something that I wouldn't personally do. Play on.