Why CC pickups over P-90s?

[RyanM]

CC pickups seem like the trend these days. But also, Kessel, Kenny, Tal, all swapped their p90s for CC pickups. Are CC pickups really that much better than p90s?

[ruger9]

Not "better", it's just personal preference. P90s have more midrange in general than CC pickups, so on an archtop a CC might be clearer, and cut through better. But there are plenty of awesome P90 jazz tones out there.

It's just whichever one YOU think sounds best in a particular guitar.

[omphalopsychos]

I think it depends on what you mean by CC pickups. An original 30s Gibson pickup sounds very different from those blade pickups. However the blade pickups sound very good. They are more compressed and less midrange than a p90. Perhaps a bit more low end depending on the model.

The vintage ones are very uncompressed / dynamic and full range. They reproduce a lot of the acoustic qualities of the instrument due to the large cobalt magnets running parallel to the strings.

Both are highly regarded.

[Cunamara]

I think it depends on what you mean by CC pickups. An original 30s Gibson pickup sounds very different from those blade pickups.

I dunno. Fred Archtop has done a number of comparison videos and I have been impressed at the similarity between the original CC pickup in his ES-150, later Gibson versions and the recent Lollar and Biltoft versions. They don't sound exactly alike, but then neither would two of the originals sound the same any more due to aging magnets (and we can't hear what they sounded like in 1938 when the magnets were new, recorded on modern technology, to fairly compare with current production). Listen to Fred's comparison videos without looking at the screen and it can be hard to tell when he switches.

There is a difference in tone with the P90. I like the P90 but I think the CC sounds deeper and somehow more transparent. The newer versions by Lollar and Biltoft, etc., capture a lot of that. The more faithful reproductions, such as Daniel Slaman used in his Sister series, do so even more.

[omphalopsychos]

They sound similar if you roll the tone back enough just like any two pickups.

[GuyBoden]

CC pickups seem like the trend these days. But also, Kessel, Kenny, Tal, all swapped their p90s for CC pickups. Are CC pickups really that much better than p90s?

Quote from this Post below:
What makes a Charlie Christian pickup a Charlie Christian pickup? | My Les Paul Forum

"It's not just the blade, but the whole construction and sound of the pickup.

The originals used huge cobalt steel magnets, (the two long bars in the picture below.) They actually played a major role in holding not just the pickup together, but attaching it to the guitar's top.





These magnets had to be so big, because cobalt steel magnets of the 30's were very low gauss, So even with those big magnets, there wasn't much magnetic force.

The wire was 38 gauge(!) which is essentially, a huge wire. No one uses it nowadays, unless replicating this pickup. It's just too big.
In fact it's so big, they couldn't get many wraps around the bobbin before it would be full.

It was a revolutionary design, but not very efficient. It weighs 2 lbs., takes a long time to build, is particularly prone to breakdowns and noise.
I've also heard that the cobalt steel magnets lose magnetism much more than in later pickup designs, (can't confirm that, though.)

As a result of the wire and magnets, even though it was a huge pickup, it generally only had a DC resistance of 2.5-4k ohms, with plenty of examples reading around 1-1.5k.


But the thing is, all these features combined to create a very unique sound. The appealing thing about the Charlie Christian pickup is that it has a lot of power and warmth, but also a lot of clarity and responsiveness. It doesn't have the output of a distortion pickup, but it does put out a good amount of volume, often comparable to a P-90 with a much higher DC reading.


People compare them to P-90's in tone, and while this is true to some extent, to my ear, they're a much more complex tone with a greater frequency range and clarity. Some modern P-90's, (esp. Lollar's low-winds,) and single-coils like DeArmonds have some similar characteristics, but it's hard to find another pickup with the same combination of warmth and clarity.

This is why so many jazz and blues players hold it in such high regard.

What winders like Kent Armstrong, (I think he was first,) Pete Biltoft, Jason Lollar, and Dave Stephens, have managed to do, is to substitute strong, much smaller alnico magnets for the original steel bars.

I'm sure there's a lot more work that goes into it, however, in order to maintain that unique tone and not turn it into a P-90 with a blade."


Charlie Christian, T-Bone Walker, Oscar Moore, Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell, Herb Ellis, and many, many more are among the players who made it so famous. Gibson even offered it as an option for 20 years after they stopped using it on production models, and they brought it back in the 70's for the ES-175CC.

In the 70's and 80's, Danny Gatton re-popularized it, and also showed it could be surprisingly versatile. It even sounds great with some overdrive. Lot's of guys like Redd Volkert, Vince Gill and other country and rockabilly players have discovered what a great neck pickup it makes

It was also very influential on Bill Lawrence and Joe Barden, (and subsequently Seymour Duncan and Larry Dimarzio,) as far as design features and tone.

Soloway guitars are often shipped with Biltoft's humbucker-sized Charlie Christian pickups, Soloway Guitars - Listen, they used to post a lot of mp3's to show off the different tones.

In addition, there's a UK company that's producing incredible, very accurate vintage reproductions of the pickup: Charlie Christian Pickups - CC Pickups

Hope this answered some of your questions. I've been a fan of this pickup since I was a boy: nothing else sounds quite like it.
It's so nice that it's back, and in many different options.
Pete Biltoft is even producing versions that fit in Strat, Tele and P-90 slots, with a choice of colors"

[Dean_G]

I have a 2005 Slaman with a Lollar CC and it sounds great. I think as much as the unique tonal characteristics, what I noticed is great dynamic sensitivity. Of course the amplifier and the entire signal chain must be considered. However despite worshipping the CC pickup since hearing HR "Color Him Funky" in the 60s, I often think I like my P90 guitar sounds as much or better.
For some comparative listening check out Barney Kessel's "Easy Like" which he plays his es350 with P90 vs some of the Poll Winners recordings. Same guitar (but different amp recording tech etc). Both recordings have delightful guitar tone. The P90 is tight and focused while the Poll Winners trio recordings show off the transparency of the CC, very clear, bright but warm, and almost "acoustic-like" dynamics. Again no doubt different amps recording studio and such. I once asked Lindy Fralin if they could wind a P90 soapbar to replace the P100s in an es135 to approach the tonal qualities on the Kessel poll Winners recordings, and sent them an example on tape. They made a pair of low impedance alnico P90 and the sound from the semi hollow es135 was scary close to what I was hearing. I could get close to that snappy, almost delicate tone. There's so many variables though. For me all things considered I'd be as happy with P90 as CC. CCs are special but not so unique you can't get a tone that anyone other than a jazz guitar tone nerd would notice. More important to expression is your playing touch and the tone you can pull out with your hands.

[Marty Grass]

Personal preference- I agree. I have had guitars with the McCarty pickup, the CC, a mounted P-90, and a Dearmond RC 1100. They all seem to work fine.

[Dean_G]

CC pickups seem like the trend these days. But also, Kessel, Kenny, Tal, all swapped their p90s for CC pickups. Are CC pickups really that much better than p90s?

While this is true (didn't know about Kenny Burrell if he did he didn't stick with it), one notable exception is Howard Roberts who swapped the CC in his "Black Guitar" for a P90 at a later point. OTOH Hank Garland, Dennis Budimir, Jimmy Rainy, Rene Thomas, Oscar Moore, Mary Osborne...hard to argue with that bunch. Then again there weren't a lot of choices early on. How much might it have had to do with Charlie Christian, guitar god to all of them, popularizing the Gibson and his endorsement?

[RyanM]

It’s crazy to me that Gibson’s first idea for amplifying was huge magents bolted to the top rather than floating!

[GuyBoden]

It’s crazy to me that Gibson’s first idea for amplifying was huge magnets bolted to the top rather than floating!

Maybe, only larger magnets were cheaply available in 1930's?

Gibson Pre-War Guitars, Kevin Mark Designs - History of the Electric Pickup

Guy Hart's 1937 patent pickup for a lap steel guitar below.
(This is what has become known as the Charlie Christian pickup.)




Gibson 1930's Lap Steel Guitar E-150


Guy Hart's 1937 patent pickup inside.





But, what happened to the long slanted P90?


The P90
Gibson Pre-War Guitars, Kevin Mark Designs - History of the Electric Pickup
Vintage Guitar' October 2008.
"In late 1939, Walter Fuller was experimenting with magnets made from the lighter, stronger alloy called Alnico, searching not only for a competitive design, but also proper placement for the best tone in the new generation of ES guitars. The idea for the 6 3/4" P-90 was to capture "full tonal range," as close to an acoustic as an electric could get. The length allowed him to span then distance from the end of the fingerboard to the bridge.....utilizing the basics of the original bar-pickup design, this new coil is comprised of an iron core threaded for the height-adjustable polepieces; a top and bottom of tortishell celluloid complete the coils of the new thinner-profile bobbin. The iron core extends below the bottom plate, and along its exposed length are four Alnico magnets. The coil is attached with two screws."


Or the P13?

[Doctor Jeff]

It’s such a primitive design…it’s a wonder it sounds as good as it does.

But it does…can’t argue with results.

How much do the modern examples, for instance in the new PMC, weigh?

When I googled it…”The average pickup truck weighs between 5,000 and 7,500 pounds. The weight of the truck bed is only one factor in determining the overall weight of the truck.”

[Herbie]

Maybe, only larger magnets were cheaply available in 1930's?

Gibson Pre-War Guitars, Kevin Mark Designs - History of the Electric Pickup

Guy Hart's 1937 patent pickup for a lap steel guitar below.
(This is what has become known as the Charlie Christian pickup.)




Gibson 1930's Lap Steel Guitar E-150


Guy Hart's 1937 patent pickup inside.





But, what happened to the long slanted P90?


The P90
Gibson Pre-War Guitars, Kevin Mark Designs - History of the Electric Pickup
Vintage Guitar' October 2008.
"In late 1939, Walter Fuller was experimenting with magnets made from the lighter, stronger alloy called Alnico, searching not only for a competitive design, but also proper placement for the best tone in the new generation of ES guitars. The idea for the 6 3/4" P-90 was to capture "full tonal range," as close to an acoustic as an electric could get. The length allowed him to span then distance from the end of the fingerboard to the bridge.....utilizing the basics of the original bar-pickup design, this new coil is comprised of an iron core threaded for the height-adjustable polepieces; a top and bottom of tortishell celluloid complete the coils of the new thinner-profile bobbin. The iron core extends below the bottom plate, and along its exposed length are four Alnico magnets. The coil is attached with two screws."


Or the P13?

Thanks for this,Guy! Highly interesting!

It is good reminder for the fact that the main goal was a natural acoustic sound of the guitar.

Also it is eye opening to realise that Alnico magnet was the newest innovation in those days.

”Alnico magnets were invented in Japan in the early 1930s. The first compositions did not contain cobalt and were called alni. With the discovery that cobalt enhanced magnetic properties, several compositional variations followed between 1935 and 1974, ending with alnico 9.”

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...science/alnico