How does your Archtop play compared to solid body?

[starjasmine]

@JCat, I gravitated towards edge picking because it feels better and gives me more control than the umpteen other approaches I've tried over the years. IMO .009 and .013 gauge sets feel markedly different from each other, regardless of scale length. In fact, I've even been experimenting with an .008 E and an .015 G on the LP lately (to make those JoeB/AlK string bends easier), and I still don't have to adjust my picking technique to accommodate the lighter gauges.

Back to the original question, I think the big difference in how an archtop plays vs a solidbody is the resonance of the body. The response of an archtop is completely different than a solidbody, especially through an amp. Neither is "better" they're just different.

Similarly, IDK whether light gauge strings are "easier" to play than heavier gauges, they are just different. If the difference is so great that the player struggles, that might point to something other than the guitar. Maybe. I'm the first to admit that I found heavier strings gave me "more to pick against" and in that way compensated for flaws in my right-hand technique. Now that those flaws are much improved (IDK about completely removed, but workin' on it!) needing "more to pick against" is not an issue for me. I can play jazz on heavy gauges and on light gauges... but I'm not doing Al King-like string bends on the heavy strings.

My $0.02 :-)

[Cunamara]

I haven't heard of that one. I've just finished a couple of hours of
practice, looking forward to tomorrow to investigate JS's method!
Thanks

A much more detailed discussion:

The Johnny Smith Stringing & Tuning Method | Mark Wein Guitar Lessons

[JCat]

@JCat, I gravitated towards edge picking because it feels better and gives me more control than the umpteen other approaches I've tried over the years. IMO .009 and .013 gauge sets feel markedly different from each other, regardless of scale length. In fact, I've even been experimenting with an .008 E and an .015 G on the LP lately (to make those JoeB/AlK string bends easier), and I still don't have to adjust my picking technique to accommodate the lighter gauges.

Back to the original question, I think the big difference in how an archtop plays vs a solidbody is the resonance of the body. The response of an archtop is completely different than a solidbody, especially through an amp. Neither is "better" they're just different.

Similarly, IDK whether light gauge strings are "easier" to play than heavier gauges, they are just different. If the difference is so great that the player struggles, that might point to something other than the guitar. Maybe. I'm the first to admit that I found heavier strings gave me "more to pick against" and in that way compensated for flaws in my right-hand technique. Now that those flaws are much improved (IDK about completely removed, but workin' on it!) needing "more to pick against" is not an issue for me. I can play jazz on heavy gauges and on light gauges... but I'm not doing Al King-like string bends on the heavy strings.

My $0.02 :-)

That's cool, I think Benson too developed some edge picking method that worked for him.
Wes played with his thumb, Joe plucked with his fingers, Pat plays with the pick upside down. Different strokes for different folks. The shape and material of a flatpick, and the picking technique obviously plays a part in tone shaping and it also affects feel and speed (a soft, thin pick is slow when held flat, whereas a fat, stubby pick with well rounded edges is much faster).

Edge picking is a technique with merits we can explore, but I wouldn't think of it as a fix for a stiff playing guitar. Some people in the internet guitar community tunes down a semi step to Eb in order to reduce tension...

I feel the pain of the beginner that is held back because his guitar setup is not adequate. Beginners buy guitars on-line and then attend on-line classes and watch on-line videos on setup and maintenance. In this virtual realm people are obsessed with rulers and feeler gauges and then have to tune down to Eb. Because the on-line teacher cannot assess his student's instruments in real life.

I regularly switch between solidbody, semi and archtop, long scale or short scale, and then I want my right hand (picking/plucking hand) to meet the same resistance when playing with my fingers or a pick. Therefore I use different string gauge configurations depending on guitar model/individual guitar.

One thing that should be mentioned here, is gauge configuration and string type impact on amplified output. Heavy strings got more magnetic mass and stainless flats are really powerful. Some guitars (in particular some old archtops) got primitive pickups with limited adjustability, then the string set gauges may have to be configured for the purpose of balancing output.

[starjasmine]

Edge picking is a technique with merits we can explore, but I wouldn't think of it as a fix for a stiff playing guitar.

Maybe I didn't read carefully enough, but I didn't think that was the question; i.e. assuming that both guitars are set up correctly and have no inherent problems that limit their playability. Anyway, yes, edge picking is not the answer to a setup problem. It is just a technique that works well for ME to mitigate the problem of strings that feel "too light to pick against."

I regularly switch between solidbody, semi and archtop, long scale or short scale, and then I want my right hand (picking/plucking hand) to meet the same resistance when playing with my fingers or a pick.

That's what edge picking does for my picking hand. As for finger picking, well, that's a whole different thing... Even Matteo Mancuso uses 10s because 9s are too light for his RH technique, according to him.

One thing that should be mentioned here, is gauge configuration and string type impact on amplified output. Heavy strings got more magnetic mass and stainless flats are really powerful. Some guitars (in particular some old archtops) got primitive pickups with limited adjustability, then the string set gauges may have to be configured for the purpose of balancing output.

I'd say this is true of any guitar and set of strings, and that pickup height, adjustable pole pieces (if available), and electronics (from the guitar all the way down the signal-processing chain) make a difference, as well as the individual player's mechanical technique. i.e. even under optimum conditions, you are listening and adjusting your mechanical technique constantly to achieve balanced output.

But I think all of that is somewhat OT to the original question of SB vs archtop differences, since it could apply to any guitar. In fact, the whole edge-picking discussion is orthogonal to the SB vs archtop differences discussion. I just wanted to mention it because for me this technique mitigates so many of the issues you mentioned.

I don't want to hijack the thread ... apologies to Mark for the OT discussion ;-)

[diamondjazzy]

IMO, an archtop with flatwound strings gives you a very punchy sound which is good for the rhythmic nature of jazz. It's also nice to get some of that acoustic "breathiness" for playing chords. Solid bodies have more sustain and so they just sound a bit different.

[ruger9]

I currently only own one archtop, a Gretsch 6120, and it plays pretty much like my solidbodies. My teles have 10-52, the Gretsch has 11-50. I'm a bender. When I finally get an ES-125, I don't think I'll be putting 13s on it, probably 12s (which is what I put on my flat tops), I can still bend those a bit.

[tpandela]

I have two semi's, an Ibanez AS200 and a Gibson Howard Roberts Fusion and two hollow body archtops, my beloved GB10 and a Heritage Classic Eagle. For big band I generally use the GB10 or the HRF, both strung with flatwound 12's. My solid bodies stay at home as they are strung with 10's and at times they can sound plinky for BB music though doable for quieter small ensemble gigs.
Here's what I learned with the big band. The Heritage response didn't feel fast enough. The semi's and the GB10 are right there. I like to make cuts with the horns to support the harmony, my rhythm style is a combination of small band style and Freddie Green, depending. The Heritage stays next to my computer to work out a YouTube lesson or practice a part that needs some work.
Happy Holidays!
Tom

[JGinNJ]

This is a great question I've tried lots of different experiments to answer conclusively. The simplest answer for me and my purposes is, an archtop with 11's or 12's is the best combination of playability, sound, and ergonomics.

The more complicated answer is, you can put similar gauge strings and set the action pretty much identically, and you won't get the same playability from a solid-body or flatop. Probably scale length, neck shape, and string tension all contribute. Even frets, like the jumbo frets on a Fender to make it easier to bend notes.

The other thing I found is, try playing it for an hour! I put my usual flatwound 12s on my Jazzmaster once, and after an hour playing big band charts found it was tough on my fingers, between the frets and the string tension.

I've tried putting Monel "Retro" 11's (or silk & steel) on a Martin with a modern neck shape- still a workout playing up the neck, but those same Retro's on one of my archtops is easy, if not a little too bright acoustically.

If you don't get the sound you want, it's a compromise for playability and practicality. I didn't own a solidbody for a long time, but I find them useful for quiet practice with headphones, travel, and outdoor/crowded situations where i don't want to bring "a lot of guitar".

[GuyBoden]

What I like about hollow archtops and flatops is the acoustic sound coming from the guitar. You don't get that with a solid body or even semis.

[Spook410]

It's not so much about the action and/or strings for me. Solid bodies have a completely different feel because the attack envelope and sustain are not nearly the same. Solid bodies require a lot more damping and a very light touch.

[rpjazzguitar]

If it hasn't been mentioned, tailpiece design is another factor.

I've never done definitive tests, but it's my impression that you can feel the difference between a trapeze and a stud tailpiece. That length of string behind the bridge stretches when you fret a note. This makes the string feel easier to deflect -- fretting it or bending it. Most solids have studs, but not all. I assume that archtops have to have trapeze tailpieces.

I play a semi. It has the sustain I need on high, single notes. It doesn't feed back. And, it doesn't sound as good as a good archtop for comping. Trade-off.

[John A.]

If it hasn't been mentioned, tailpiece design is another factor.

I've never done definitive tests, but it's my impression that you can feel the difference between a trapeze and a stud tailpiece. That length of string behind the bridge stretches when you fret a note. This makes the string feel easier to deflect -- fretting it or bending it. Most solids have studs, but not all. I assume that archtops have to have trapeze tailpieces.

I play a semi. It has the sustain I need on high, single notes. It doesn't feed back. And, it doesn't sound as good as a good archtop for comping. Trade-off.

I have a semi with a trapeze tailpiece (D'Angelico EX DC) and a solidbody with a stop tailpiece (Gibson Les Paul ). They're set up with the same 12th fret action and relief and the same string sets (10-46 rollerwounds). Subjectively, fretting and bending take less effort on the Gibson. However, they have different neck profiles, and the D'A has a true 24.75" scale, while the LP has Gibson's nominal 24.75" that is actually about 24.6". I could not tell you which of these factors has what effect on the subjective ease of fretting and bending, but a suspect neck profile is the biggest factor.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have a semi with a trapeze tailpiece (D'Angelico EX DC) and a solidbody with a stop tailpiece (Gibson Les Paul ). They're set up with the same 12th fret action and relief and the same string sets (10-56 rollerwounds). Subjectively, fretting and bending take less effort on the Gibson. However, they have different neck profiles, and the D'A has a true 24.75" scale, while the LP has Gibson's nominal 24.75" that is actually about 24.6". I could not tell you which of these factors has what effect on the subjective ease of fretting and bending, but a suspect neck profile is the biggest factor.

I agree. Neck profile can make a huge difference. After years of rejecting 25.5" guitars I got one with that scale but a very thin neck. That one feels great -- much more than I expected based on scale length.

[John A.]

I agree. Neck profile can make a huge difference. After years of rejecting 25.5" guitars I got one with that scale but a very thin neck. That one feels great -- much more than I expected based on scale length.

My situation is the opposite -- my Les Paul has a chunkier neck. But I think it's more the shape than the thickness that makes the difference. My D'A has a slightly flat , D-shaped profile. , whereas my 3 other electrics are all have rounder c-shaped profiles. My strat is approximately the same thickness, the LP is thicker (what Gibson calls a '50s profile), and my Seventy Seven archtop is even thicker, but they all have round "C" shaped profiles. They're all easy to play, and the differences are subtle, but somehow the roundness makes a difference.

[beate_r]

IMO, an archtop with flatwound strings gives you a very punchy sound which is good for the rhythmic nature of jazz. It's also nice to get some of that acoustic "breathiness" for playing chords. Solid bodies have more sustain and so they just sound a bit different.

But despite of that, flatwounds on a solid body, especially heavy ones, have a similar effect. I noticed when i hat the chance to play a 50s or early 60s Telecaster with a really fat neck, strung with .015 LaBella Flats. Could reproduce it on a semi hollow flying V (DIY), wich dos, of course responds a lot more acoustically than the solid body. But the most extreme in punchiness is again a solid body baritone (bass V, actually a converted shortscale bass) strung with LaBella Flats for low E-E tuning. So punchy that i need a compressor/limiter to tame it. But still a lot of sustain.
My personal reference is always my DIY archtop strung with .012 or .013 flats.

[Joe Dampt]

Switching between an archtop and a solid body takes some adjustment, mostly due to string tension and setup differences. Archtops tend to have higher action and require more controlled fretting, while solid bodies, especially with shorter scales, feel easier to play. Moving from heavier strings to lighter ones is usually a smooth transition, but going the other way can take time. Some players tweak their picking technique rather than adjusting action. It’s interesting how muscle memory adapts over time.

[rpjazzguitar]

The way to maximize intonation for a high action that you play all over the neck is to

tune your 1st string to E*, independently checking the 1st's tuning throughout...
then your 2nd string at the 5th fret to match the open 1st,
then your 3rd string at the 9th to match the 1st
then your 4th string at the 14th to the 1st
then 5th at the 19th (not the harmonic there or at the 7th, they're not equal temperament)
then 6th at the 5th fret harmonic (this one is equal temperament)

So it's all Es... This method takes into account (balances somewhat) the anomalous variation with respect to the different string gauges and their characteristic misbehavior as you play up the neck. This is also one of the few methods of tuning by ear that most likely results in approaching equal temperament rather than what your ear wants to hear.
It is nice in the performance environment because it's easy to hear a single pitch in a noisy place that has piped music or other musicians warming up.

*The band's E, if the piano's a little off from standard, it happens!

This is the method recommended to me by Hideo Kamimoto, decades ago.

[Cunamara]

I repost this whenever the "how to tune" discussion comes up. I use the method posted by pauln most of the time.

The Johnny Smith Stringing & Tuning Method | Mark Wein Guitar Lessons

[Greywolf]

As a 40 yr luthier I don't find my Archtop to be any more difficult , I set all of my 49 instruments up to play easily.

While string gauges do effect the tension of playing, it presents no challenge as I typically play 3-4 hrs a day

[Alter]

I have two archtops. One is a Mesrobian, a 17" L5 clone. It plays ok, but it's too loud acoustically and it's hard for me to get low dynamics going.

The other one is an Elferink Tonemaster. It can be setup so low, that with Thomastic 12s is too easy to play and it frets out on me. Easy solution of course, I just raised the action a bit.