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I just thought I'd throw this out there and you can all make of it what you will...
My mother was a fairly good classical pianist not good enough to make living at it but good enough to teach local kids and get some work as an accompanist as a young woman. Much more importantly though, she loved to play. It brought her a lot of joy and peace. When Yamaha introduced their grand pianos in Canada in the early 70's, she decided she wanted one and bought the best model she could afford. She played that piano for the next 40 years. I'm pretty sure it brought her more happiness than anything else in her life, including her family.
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10-21-2024 04:13 PM
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I don't post here that much-- about 30 posts over eight years--, and genuinely didn't expect this thread to devolve into what it has; a long-winding philosophical debate featuring people arbitrarily declaring who should and shouldn't be buying these guitars, as they're apparently wasted on anyone short of a certain skill-set, etc. I didn't realize my simple question could elicit such displays of gatekeeping and what seems like indirect berating. I've just had a long-standing deep passion for both of these titans of luthiery- their work/aesthetic speaks to me more than most others... I love Monteleone a great deal as well, but that's truly entirely out of the realm of possibility- and even a Parker and Manzer I openly describe as being a distant pipe-dream in my op... Anyways, funny to see what this turned into, though I certainly appreciate the handful of folks who chimed in with their first-hand experience(s)- thank you!
Originally Posted by SierraTango
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My own biking days started not long after that so I still think of 2005 and younger models as "recent" Originally Posted by SierraTango
Funny to realise that my Norge will become of age and have the right to vote next year 
Hah! Once, as a more or less freshman student I thought I'd try a wise crack with the senior professor charged with the "philosophy of biology" course and asked him about devolution. He happened to be a friend of the family but was also not exactly a backwater professor (Aristed Lindenmayer). Didn't expect him to start howling with laughter and then scold me about forgetting that there's no concept of direction (aka absolute improvement) in evolution. Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty
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A wealthy man might buy an expensive guitar or motorcycle as a prop to bolster his fragile sense of self. But that does not diminish the intrinsic value of the object as a piece of craftsmanship. When the man has gone to his lonely grave, his possessions will still be useful to others. A thing well made is worth more than its price.
In any case, these concerns hardly apply to Manzer and Parker, who make some of the best guitars for some of the best guitarists.
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I don't blame the luthiers for charging top dollar for their guitars if they can sell every guitar they make. That's their prerogative.
It would be nice if more "working musicians" could have more access to the high end, but I doubt that there are enough full-time working musicians to support all of these luthiers even if they could afford their guitars ... especially archtops.
There are only so many true full-time pros that the market can support.
Every non pro with some extra income that buys a high-end guitar, whether to "bolster his fragile sense of self" or maybe even to actually play it, is helping to keep our beloved luthiers in business ... and may even help these luthiers give out a free or discounted guitar to someone actually trying to make a living playing.
Now that I'm retired, I've contemplated raiding my retirement savings to splurge on something extra nice like a Manzer or a Scharpach, but I'm very happy with my little Gibson collection.
And those retirement savings need to stay where they are for the time being. LOL
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I guess you could call it Sour Grapes. But it’s awful depressing to see how far music has fallen as an audio experience to becoming an Amway Sales Video experience nowadays.
Probably people didn’t listen all that much back then as well. But technology sure has allowed a lot of people to play make believe musician,politician,experts on everything.
There used to be a bar to reach, to sit in with the pros. And the music was made by a cooperative of talented folks.
This is where people can play make believe and be congratulated on acquisitions rather than your actual musical abilities is awful imo.
Sorry but no guitar no matter how wonderful, turns you into a great player. And you would be much better served, spending your money on some lessons and practice.
I also can’t see buying an instrument strictly as a visual prop either. But alas we now live in the age of The Kardashians.
At least put in the hands of some great player to make music, like Stradivarius owners do.
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Well, I was debating but think I am going to chime in. I played a Manzer archtop probably over 20 years ago and that guitar made quite an impact on me. I never thought I would ever own one. I have owned some very nice archtops over the years as well. No matter what guitars I had, my L-5 has always been my "go to". It's an amazing guitar, I have played so many gigs with it and it sounds fantastic! I have always made a living playing and teaching guitar. Although it's been mostly teaching over the past several years. That's also by choice as well. That being said, it's been a "one in, out" rule for me for a long time when it comes to guitars. However I was recently presented with the opportunity to get into a Manzer archtop. It required me selling more than just one guitar and various other pieces of gear but this was the closest I have ever gotten to having one. I used some good deals I have gotten over the years to move and leverage up. I questioned myself at first on it being frivolous, should I sell all of this gear and all of the other things I could do with the $ (Credit cards, savings, college for the kids groceries lol) but I went for it and SO SO glad I did. I don't miss a thing that I parted with. (nor my completely depleted gear fund)
I can't even begin to tell you how much I am obsessed with this guitar! It is absolutely amazing! The best sounding archtop I have ever owned. The sound is almost intoxicating and so hard for me to put it down. I play it every chance I get! It even went out on its first gig not long ago. It's the first guitar I have had in a very long time that has kept the L-5 on the wall for the past month. (don't worry, it will be back out
I have also always plugged in if the guitar has a pickup when practicing, not this one. I can't get over the timbre and how well balanced it is.
I feel very fortunate to have this guitar. To be honest, after spending time playing it, the inspiration and joy it brings to me, priceless.
There are so many great guitars out there in all price ranges! I had an Ibanez that was my main guitar for almost a decade.
However, if there is "the one" and you can make it happen one way or another, GO FOR IT!
This is the longest honeymoon phase I have ever had with a new guitar. So stoked.
I have never had the opportunity to play a Parker archtop (although I hope it happens one day, can't wait
Linda Manzer is an amazing, incredibly talented luthier and it doesn't get better IMO. She is incredibly nice as well.
More than happy to answer any questions for the OP.
Finally got the setup dialed in for my preferences and adjusting the pole pieces on the pickup for a balanced sound took me a bit but it's there and fantastic.
I plan to post some videos and clips soon.
Cheers!
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I was fortunate to have Jim Hall as a mentor at the start of my career. (1990's) I got to play his D'Aquisto a few times and I started to wonder if I should get one for myself. He said he would get me in touch with Jimmy if I really wanted, but strongly suggested I look into a young (my age) luthier Stephen Marchione , he said we could build our careers together . I took his advice and have been playing Stephen's wonderful instruments for nearly 30 years...
During that time, I played at a number of events, Healdsburg Guitar Festival, Guild of American Luthiers, Long Island Guitar Show, Woodstock Invitational etc and got to meet many great luthiers and try their instruments. There aren't quite as many of those gatherings as there used to be, but there are still a few going on if you poke around. If you're considering a high end handmade guitar it could be worth a trip to see what instruments you really bond with
A lot of the 'one-person' shops take on apprentices, who then go on to their own careers: Vincent Cleroux and Taka Moro from Marchione and Peggy White from Manzer come to mind. If you're interested in a particular 'school' of lutherie, you might be able to find an ex-apprentice with less prohibitive wait lists and budget
Best wishes for everyone's music!
PK
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respectfully, this is now the third or fourth post where you've illustrated a fundamental misunderstanding of my op (and subsequent posts). Originally Posted by jads57
nowhere do i claim that i expect any of these guitars should turn me into a great player, nor do i think anyone buying into one of these (or a monteleone, d'aquisto, whatever) holds that belief. i mean, that's downright delusional, juvenile, and a serious misconstruing of facts if that was your takeaway.
too, nowhere did i claim to want one of these as a mere "visual prop"; that's absurd, didn't know there were such people- i repeatedly stated i play the crap out of all of my instruments, including ones i've had in the past which cost as much as the ones being discussed here- i am not precious with any of my gear.
i'm not some rich dude with infinite means who buys these things and locks them up... music/guitar has been my great big love/passion in life since i was 15, i am 35 now, and this is the one 'vice' i like to spend on... i don't see an issue in that, especially if i get to realize a life-long dream of owning a fine instrument made by these people whose work i've admired for over half my life- it's not hurting anyone... i work damn hard (and will often consolidate) to get to enjoy the few instruments i've got in my modest stable. my skill level (which you literally have no idea of) is irrelevant, frankly- how is this even a conversation-, but that seems to be your hangup/the looming concern for you.
not sure where this immense disconnect is stemming from, nor this repeated thinly-veiled berating, as i like to think my posts were eloquent enough. you're literally just putting words in peoples mouthes/at their fingertips, pressing your own strange agenda/belief. can't believe i even just spent five minutes typing this out, justifying myself to a total stranger, haha- back into the shadows i go, if this is how it is here.Last edited by Hogtown Fatty; 10-22-2024 at 01:06 AM.
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I was grinning ear-to-ear reading this; so incredibly happy for you. Originally Posted by CharlesC
Well, I was debating but think I am going to chime in. I played a Manzer archtop probably over 20 years ago and that guitar made quite an impact on me. I never thought I would ever own one. I have owned some very nice archtops over the years as well. No matter what guitars I had, my L-5 has always been my "go to". It's an amazing guitar, I have played so many gigs with it and it sounds fantastic! I have always made a living playing and teaching guitar. Although it's been mostly teaching over the past several years. That's also by choice as well. That being said, it's been a "one in, out" rule for me for a long time when it comes to guitars. However I was recently presented with the opportunity to get into a Manzer archtop. It required me selling more than just one guitar and various other pieces of gear but this was the closest I have ever gotten to having one. I used some good deals I have gotten over the years to move and leverage up. I questioned myself at first on it being frivolous, should I sell all of this gear and all of the other things I could do with the $ (Credit cards, savings, college for the kids groceries lol) but I went for it and SO SO glad I did. I don't miss a thing that I parted with. (nor my completely depleted gear fund)
I can't even begin to tell you how much I am obsessed with this guitar! It is absolutely amazing! The best sounding archtop I have ever owned. The sound is almost intoxicating and so hard for me to put it down. I play it every chance I get! It even went out on its first gig not long ago. It's the first guitar I have had in a very long time that has kept the L-5 on the wall for the past month. (don't worry, it will be back out I have also always plugged in if the guitar has a pickup when practicing, not this one. I can't get over the timbre and how well balanced it is.
I feel very fortunate to have this guitar. To be honest, after spending time playing it, the inspiration and joy it brings to me, priceless.
There are so many great guitars out there in all price ranges! I had an Ibanez that was my main guitar for almost a decade.
However, if there is "the one" and you can make it happen one way or another, GO FOR IT!
This is the longest honeymoon phase I have ever had with a new guitar. So stoked.
I have never had the opportunity to play a Parker archtop (although I hope it happens one day, can't wait
Linda Manzer is an amazing, incredibly talented luthier and it doesn't get better IMO. She is incredibly nice as well.
More than happy to answer any questions for the OP.
Finally got the setup dialed in for my preferences and adjusting the pole pieces on the pickup for a balanced sound took me a bit but it's there and fantastic.
I plan to post some videos and clips soon.
Cheers!
I've in the past done the same when chasing certain expensive pieces of vintage gear, wherein I traded-up other (already very nice) gear I had, and I too never looked back once. A bunch of pedals and a couple of guitars to get into an original '54 Les Paul? Uh, yes please. I've done stuff like that at least a dozen times to get into some 'big boy' pieces, and never regretted. Most of those guitars didn't stick around long, but that's a different story.
I am so, so, glad to hear that the one you got lived up to the hype and to the expectation you had based off that 20+ year old memory- a real homecoming; love it.
I'd love to see a photo of your L5 next to the Manzer if/when you have time, and hear a clip if you happen to have one handy! What size Manzer is it; 16, 17, or 18"?
Cheers, play it in the best of health for years to come!
P.S. I have met Linda before and chatted a few times via e-mail/messenger, incredibly nice and friendly- I'm also in Toronto (she's between here and Almonte).
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Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty
Don't let the thread poopers drive you back into the shadows.
This is one of the few places on the internet where anyone discusses these high-end archtop guitars, even with the sour grapes feedback that those discussions often get.
I've thought about buying or ordering something at this level myself and would like to have an idea whether they are really worth digging into my savings and paying 10 or 20 times more than I paid for my Le Grand in 1994.
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Wow, I hardly know how to respond to this post, it seems so overwhelmingly negative to me. Originally Posted by jads57
I will say that there is no linkage IMHO between so called Internet experts, the decline of Western civilization, and the desire to acquire a great instrument. I know no one who buys instruments as a "visual prop" or to be congratulated on their acquisition, even if they want to mention it on this forum- that's just what we do here as you know. Most everyone I know that collects guitars or has a few good ones plays- maybe not at the level you feel they should be playing, but often at a surprisingly high level, even if not professional. Instruments have been purchased forever by non-professionals, in former times it might have been a Steinway grand in the living room, even if the family didn't have Bill Evans in the house. It was a sign of culture if you will. My own mother had a nondescript upright, but she had been a very serious classical pianist who gave it up to be a housewife, the way women did in the '50's. She deserved to have a Steinway and in fact grew up on one. But the piano we did have, and the guitars hanging around the house, led me to my life's work.
Your rant on Internet fame is well taken, and I come from the time when you had to prove yourself on the bandstand, but I don't see how it pertains to the desire to have a nice guitar. Anyone who wants one and can afford it should be free to have one, great player or no. Those are the folks that keep modern luthiers in business, just as they kept Steinway in business back in the day. And all of those really clean D'Angellicos, D'Acquistos and L5's that turn up now were probably from some amateur's closet, and not a professional player.
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I don't either, not personally that is. But following Michael Watts's "socials" I also get exposed to - what do you call the opposite of a rant again?- of his about auctions of some (apparently) famous guitar dude's collection, where this Tele or that Strat sold for absolutely incredible prices if you realise that they're nothing but planks (plus whatever amount of mojo you think they might have). I'm pretty certain I've seen hammer prices of over 1 million. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Do you really think the people able to throw that kind of many at a board they can maybe just iron their knickers on are going to play them rather than using them for decorative purposes ... if they're not simply going to lock them away in a controlled vault for investment purposes?
Not that I care about this.
Actually, I've already bought instruments for purely decorative purposes myself ... nice vintage brass measuring tools and that kind of stuff, and you could probably turn them into musical instruments if you wanted
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So to me it’s all connected since it has to do with nowadays, and how the tools that were made to make music have become another thing altogether. They are like Art Paintings of value more than an actual music tool.
I also think the attitudes both to actual music and guitars have drastically changed from when I started playing.
Is it great a luthier can make a handsome living, sure thing! But I don’t get the point of owning something to just own it? And again this is just my perspective as an older musician. I never bought any numerous old Gibsons or 2 different Dumble amps as an investment.
I bought them to actually gig with them, when they weren’t so ridiculously priced.
Again great if you own one, but it seems like buying a Ferrari to go to close workplace. Or worse sit in a garage and not even used.
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Came here to say this. Not that I'm ever affording either. But to me, they kind of represent the pinnacle (or at least, a DAMN high peak) in these respective fields. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Which is not to say I don't think Linda's archtops aren't amazing too...
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Bah, who cares if someone buys a super sports car to go to work, or sit in his living room? I'm more annoyed by people who buy a fat SUV or ditto pickup truck which will rarely leave the city. Not sure what the guitar equivalent of that would be!
Wait, that's a triple negation ... you're not saying that you do not think they are not. So you're not saying that you think they are? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Wow, yeah, that's a terrible sentence, isn't it?
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Or a very diplomatic one Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I actually meant to reply to a post by the resident HiFi mule who used the word luthier and Mule resonator in a single phrase. Not to suggest anything about the quality of the instrument or workmanship, but a metal-body cannot etymologically speaking be a product of luthiery.
luthier - Wiktionary, the free dictionary
And I be damned, guess who has her picture in that Wiktionary article as well as in the linked WP article?! Originally Posted by RJVB
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They're like 'art paintings' AND an actual music tool. It's been said before on these type posts: if guitars are just music tools why play anything but a Tele knock-off? Originally Posted by jads57
Speaking of paintings. Manzers and Parkers are cheap!! I worked as an assistant to an artist in NYC in the 80's. His all cost more than $50K thirty years ago, and the shows sold out in preview. We cranked 'em out like cupcakes compared to these slackers.
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If they were art, we wouldn't play them at all. They would be in art museums. Originally Posted by ccroft
Who was the artist? Originally Posted by ccroft
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Like this? Originally Posted by Litterick
Ken Parker | Archtop guitar | American | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Though I contend there's such a thing as "functional art", and there's a strong case for the guitars discussed falling within the category.
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Exactly, the Met has a significant musical instrument collection. Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty
Musical Instruments | The Metropolitan Museum of Art
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Again wonderful to look at in a museum or even a private collection.
But who cares, if the original intent was to make a better mousetrap that never is used for its original purpose?
And yes someone can enjoy it as a collector of fine acquisitions. But then again it’s not really helping make better music, imo.
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If one of these bespoke guitars inspires a well heeled living room player to play more often and improve their playing, then it is really helping to make better music. Originally Posted by jads57
Life is rarely one size fits all.
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LOL
The more amateurs, hobbyists, collectors, rich people, almost rich people, etc. out there buying guitars the more guitar makers from one-man shops to large corporations there are out there building guitars.
Each one of these makers is contributing to the guitar in ways that will help both amateurs and pros make better music.
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