Worst Budget Archtops?

[joe2758]

of budget archtops (let's say under $1,000), what are the worst ones? e.g. what would you tell your students to stay away from?

[jads57]

Funny you Avatar picture has Pat Martino. He used a really low budget 12 String semi hollow back on his Desperado Album I believe, Lol!

[Doctor Jeff]

Dang that's a tough one. The QC on even the cheapest Chinese Gretsches and Ibanezes is pretty decent.

I'd say the worst one is THE ONE YOU DON'T PLAY.

;-)

Curious what others would say there. There are some off-brands out there, like GFS guitars, Cort, Grote, some no-names available on Ebay, etc. that I guess might have some quality problems.

I came across a "Sadowsky" on Ebay from China for $425.

Hot Sale Factory Sadowsky Archtop Jim Hall Model Sienna Burst Electric Guitar | eBay

But I think any archtop from a reputable maker would be reasonable for a beginner at least. Always the opportunity to upgrade electronics, pickups, tuners, etc.

[Mick-7]

I came across a "Sadowsky" on Ebay from China for $425.

Hot Sale Factory Sadowsky Archtop Jim Hall Model Sienna Burst Electric Guitar | eBay

But I think any archtop from a reputable maker would be reasonable for a beginner at least. Always the opportunity to upgrade electronics, pickups, tuners, etc.

I started a thread a while back on those Chinese counterfeit guitar models, forgot what I entitled it, but nobody here wanted to risk buying one.

The list of of mediocre budget archtop guitars would be a long one, so the better question is, which budget guitars are the best? If you can't play it beforehand, I'd stick to known brands with a good rep, like Gretsch, Ibanez, Epiphone, Sire, et. al.

[Jimmy blue note]

There are lots of no name budget guitars out there. You can find them in yard sales, department stores and online sites with names you've never heard of. Why would you want to buy something you don't know about? There are also lots of names you have heard of, with reputations that have been earned through reliability and bang for the buck.
The threshold of "really good" has been pushed very high; budget lines from Ibanez, Epiphone, Guild, Washburn and other household names are built better than 75% of mid range guitars 3 or 4 decades ago.
Here's the reason. There are LOTS of factories in the far east, and because they put care into making the finishes look good, the average player can't tell from looking from a distance.
Companies like Ibanez, Epiphone... the aforementioned staples buy from the best of those factories to build guitars for them. They do the homework and they sell them at great profit and they do so to protect and promote their reputations. Cort, Peerless, huge Chinese factories build to extremely high standards and they put the Epi or PRS or Ibanez stickers on the headstocks.
As far as the many fly by night factories, some are amazing (better than the mean) and some are trash (they'll be gone or have improved before the end of the year). How do you know what's an amazing rare buy (Like those who bought in on amazing Carlos Robelli guitars before they became Peerless Monarchs), as opposed to those which will fall apart because they were built with balsa and elmers glue? You can't tell unless you have the eye and the knowledge.

So if it's an unknown quantity, it may be cheap but don't risk it. If it's a name you hear about (on this forum...everybody's got an opinion and you can feel the trends of "good" buys), even cheap is good today if it's got a time tested name on the headstock.

If you get something that's solid (including reliable laminates) and you're serious about practicing and loving that guitar, invest in a high level set-up. It will push that guitar into the realm of a practical professional player.
If you bond with it and it takes you to the next level, it's a bargain.
If you get the deal of a century and you don't make music on it, it's exactly the same as an L-5 with the latch glued shut- and exactly the same as a plastic stella you'd never touch. Buy something that deserves to fall in love with. Inexpensive is not the same as cheap.


What to tell a student to avoid? Too broad and complex a topic to EVER address. An unknown brand with the stencil of a cowboy scene on it, probably not so good. Unknown? No need to risk it.
What to tell a student to look for? A good name, a good set-up, and a rich environment of inspiration that you can provide them with so it feels like a million every time they play a note.
My opinion only.

[AllanAllen]

I pretty much like the Epiphone Broadway or Joe Pass Emperor and can nitpick anything else. In the sub $1,000 category Gretsch is my least favorite followed by Ibanez. I have no experience with Godin, Loar, or the Amazon brands.

[pcjazz]

After too many years of doing the opposite my advice would be not to buy a cheap guitar with a view to upgrading all or most of the hardware but rather to save that (considerable) hardware money to put towards a better instrument from the get go.

[Jimmy blue note]

I pretty much like the Epiphone Broadway or Joe Pass Emperor and can nitpick anything else. In the sub $1,000 category Gretsch is my least favorite followed by Ibanez. I have no experience with Godin, Loar, or the Amazon brands.

Epiphone and Ibanez sell guitars that are literally made side by side in the same factories. Joe Pass endorsed both companies at different points in his commercial career.
I might go so far as to say that many bad experiences players and owners have are due, in no small part, to instruments that were not set up for playing at their best: Action at the bridge. Action at the nut (HUGE game changer, tricky so it's not done at the factory). Relief. Pickup height. String optimization.
I've bought instruments that players couldn't stand, set them up well, and have players pick them up a few months down the road and want to buy them back.
Just saying

[chris32895]

I had an Epiphone 175 (not the premium model) and that is probably the one archtop guitar that I did not like at all. Way too stiff with a really thin neck and a cheap looking sunburst. The pickups were not good, either.

[2bornot2bop]

I’ve yet to hear of, or see a Peerless Monarch that failed. Be careful what you read on the internet.

[AllanAllen]

Epiphone and Ibanez sell guitars that are literally made side by side in the same factories. Joe Pass endorsed both companies at different points in his commercial career.
I might go so far as to say that many bad experiences players and owners have are due, in no small part, to instruments that were not set up for playing at their best: Action at the bridge. Action at the nut (HUGE game changer, tricky so it's not done at the factory). Relief. Pickup height. String optimization.
I've bought instruments that players couldn't stand, set them up well, and have players pick them up a few months down the road and want to buy them back.
Just saying

Yeah, people love those Ibanez guitars, I dunno, I had an Ibanez semihollow bass (Like this one) that was fantastic, but the $400 archtops just didn't speak to me.

[John A.]

In that price range I'd stay away from:

- Any of the '50s-70s "department store" guitars (e.g., Harmony, Silvertone, Airline). Granted, a lot of those are now above the $1000 threshold for this discussion. Despite their hipster cred, all the ones I've tried were terrible guitars.
- Anything with a laminated top and a floating pickup. Even the ones that are decent from a playability standpoint (e.g., Ibanez, Gretsch) sound lousy IMO.
- Older The Loars, unless you can check it out in person and make sure the neck angle is OK
- Ditto the above comment about the non- "Premium" version of the Epi 175.

[RJVB]

There are some off-brands out there, like GFS guitars, Cort, Grote, some no-names available on Ebay, etc. that I guess might have some quality problems.

IMHO Cort does not belong in that line-up, at least not for the instruments they sell under their own name which are really very good for the price. And they're also not Chinese as one might deduce from a later post but Korean: more than a few good builders there. They probably won't like hearing/admitting it but they're a lot like (the) Japan(ese).
I'm not aware they build archtops though.

EDIT: dang, does the winner get a prize? If so I'll need to get my old Troubadour back and put it up for sale for 50€ or so

[Gitfiddler]

In that price range I'd stay away from:

- Any of the '50s-70s "department store" guitars (e.g., Harmony, Silvertone, Airline). Granted, a lot of those are now above the $1000 threshold for this discussion. Despite their hipster cred, all the ones I've tried were terrible guitars.
- Anything with a laminated top and a floating pickup. Even the ones that are decent from a playability standpoint (e.g., Ibanez, Gretsch) sound lousy IMO.
- Older The Loars, unless you can check it out in person and make sure the neck angle is OK
- Ditto the above comment about the non- "Premium" version of the Epi 175.

Basically, stay away from the so-called 'student' grade, crappy, guitars that many of us baby boomers learned to play guitar on back in the day.

[deacon Mark]

Even in desperation I will not drink Miller Lite beer. The same holds true for guitars at some point you might as well take up another instrument.

[wintermoon]

Funny you Avatar picture has Pat Martino. He used a really low budget 12 String semi hollow back on his Desperado Album I believe, Lol!

I believe he used that only because it was a gift from his then wife.

[Doug B]

Yeah, people love those Ibanez guitars, I dunno, I had an Ibanez semihollow bass (Like this one) that was fantastic, but the $400 archtops just didn't speak to me.

I think the Ibanez love comes from junior shredders that are used to Ibanez solid bodies. They know the I brand, but don't realize that Ibanez $400 archtops are cheap as chips.

Doug

[arnie65]

I would think, instead of telling students which guitars to stay away from, tell them which guitars under $1,000 are ok.
Ibanez has plenty of entry level jazz guitars under 1K that come to mind, the AS153 @ $800 (for example) is a great guitar, not only for a student, but for anyone to learn on or gig etc. And there's many more brands that offer descent guitars for less than 1K, you can even find better ones used.



Cheers,
Arnie...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think the Ibanez love comes from junior shredders that are used to Ibanez solid bodies. They know the I brand, but don't realize that Ibanez $400 archtops are cheap as chips. Doug

I have to politely disagree with you. Their entry level archtops are remarkable value for the price and surprisingly good instruments. The AF75 (under $400 new & a lot less used) and AG75 ($500 new & a lot les used) may not be artisanal, but they're both more than good enough to gig with even though they're also suitable for students just starting to play jazz. The second guitar player in my blues band has an AG75 that sounds great, plays great, and is built like a tank. The hardware's fine and the pickups are versatile, quiet, and very pleasing to the ear. The neck feels good, the frets and board are nicer than those on a lot of more expensive guitars I've seen, the intonation is fine, and the finish looks very good despite being very thick poly. It's not great acoustically, but amplified it holds its own on any stage.

My only flattop is an AEL207E (also Chinese made), which cost me less than $500 new and is an amazingly fine guitar. The structure, build quality, fit, and finish are all first rate. The fretwork is excellent, the neck is great, and it sounds wonderful both acoustically and amplified. My working archtop since 1997 has been an AF207, which is admittedly not an entry level guitar. But it was far less expensive than its competition, which was limited to luthier-built products at 3 to 10 times its cost. It still looks new today, and it's needed nothing but a fret L/C/P and a fresh set up every decade or so (I play very lightly - YMMV).

I bought my first Ibanez in the mid 1970s and have been most impresed with all but one of the 6 I've had and with the many others I've gotten to play over the years. And I have to say that they learn from their mistakes. Their first Chinese 7 string flattop was a dog - it had poor QC, worse intonation, lifeless acoustic tone, cheap piezo electronics, and mediocre fit and finish. I bought it when the model was first listed (maybe 20 years ago) and returned it within 3 days. I got no argument from my dealer - he agreed with all of my criticisms. And when they came out with another 7 string flattop several years later (the AEL207E that I bought as soon as it was inroduced), it was everything it should be and more.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Even in desperation I will not drink Miller Lite beer.

But that's not beer, Mark.

[Doctor Jeff]

IMHO Cort does not belong in that line-up, at least not for the instruments they sell under their own name which are really very good for the price. And they're also not Chinese as one might deduce from a later post but Korean: more than a few good builders there. They probably won't like hearing/admitting it but they're a lot like (the) Japan(ese).
I'm not aware they build archtops though.

EDIT: dang, does the winner get a prize? If so I'll need to get my old Troubadour back and put it up for sale for 50€ or so

Yeah I shouldn’t have mentioned Cort. Name just came to mind. I wouldn’t automatically look down on any Korean guitars, as many of them like Samick and Peerless (both of which I’ve owned) are very decent.

[Doctor Jeff]

Basically, stay away from the so-called 'student' grade, crappy, guitars that many of us baby boomers learned to play guitar on back in the day.

Some of those guitars were indeed poor quality, but the big problem was poor setup. (Well, tuners were crap. Back in the days of tuning by ear only…) Very high action made it painful for us young guitarists to play. Of course it was hard to set some of them up well because of the nuts, saddles, etc.

That said, I have had a number of cheaper American guitars made by Harmony, Silvertone and Kay which would have been fine when they were purchased if they had had a proper setup.

I had a Teisco (IIRC) electric and I think a Silvertone acoustic when I was a wee lad. I remember the uncomfortableness of trying to play barre chords. When years later I got a Gibson it was like a revelation.

Even in desperation I will not drink Miller Lite beer. The same holds true for guitars at some point you might as well take up another instrument.

Agree about the beers. Life is too short for bad beer or bad coffee. I won’t drink anything with “Lite” in the title. On occasion I will drink Miller out of nostalgia (first beer I drank), and I had a long neck Bud recently that was better than I remember.

But Coors? NFW.

My preference is a hardy ale with a strong malt presence to balance the hops. Dogfish Head 90 minute Ale and New Belgium Fat Tire and Tripel come to mind.

[Jim Soloway]

I think the Ibanez love comes from junior shredders that are used to Ibanez solid bodies. They know the I brand, but don't realize that Ibanez $400 archtops are cheap as chips.

Doug

I own an Ibanez AF95. The US price is $649. I think it sounds pretty good.

[Mick-7]

Michael Kelly has made some nice guitars, but this is the closet thing to an archtop they make now:
Michael Kelly Hybrid Special Electric Guitar

An older model -- Michael Kelly Phoenix Jazz Archtop

[pingu]

Yeah I shouldn’t have mentioned Cort. Name just came to mind. I wouldn’t automatically look down on any Korean guitars, as many of them like Samick and Peerless (both of which I’ve owned) are very decent.

yeah Cort are good