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On paper, the scale lengths of my Ibanez AF95G and Epiphone ES-339 are 24.7" and 24.75", respectively. However, in practice, the Ibanez fretboard feels much "shorter" than the Epi, not just half-an-inch.
Is there something else besides scale length that determines how "long" a neck feels?
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08-18-2024 03:35 PM
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Sure, for instance a neck join at a different place with the same scale can result in a neck that feels of a different length.
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[QUOTE=ThatRhythmMan;1354796]Sure, for instance a neck join at a different place with the same scale can result in a neck that feels of a different length.
And it's interesting how the neck/body join at different "fret points" on the neck affects playability of the instrument. I like the feel of my 335 style which has a join at the 19th fret as opposed to my 339. I can't remember where the neck joins on that guitar, but with its smaller body the higher frets are tucked in closer to my body and my right hand. This is more relevant when I play standing up.
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I may be wrong, but isn't the difference between 24.7" and 24.75" just .05", rather than a ½"?
Originally Posted by lydian_dorian
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Good point. You are correct. It’s very little, just 1/10th of a half inch. Originally Posted by jazzshrink
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*How* does it feel different? Tension? And sometimes thickness/profile can make a difference.
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No, you are right. Originally Posted by jazzshrink
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The Epi has a bit less tension, but that might also be due to the strings -- roundwound 11's vs the flat 11's on my Ibanez. And the string action on the Epi is lower than the AF95G (something I want to adjust on the Ibanez). Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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A few quibbles ... Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
Ibanez lists the scale length as 628mm, which is actually 24.724" (they round to 24.7"), which makes it even closer to 24.75" (probably imperceptibly shorter). But that's only telling you about scale length (i.e., distance to from nut to 12th fret x 2), not the actual measured length of the two necks. The could be the exact same length, but with slightly different application of the fret spacing formula yielding different scale-lengths.
You also have to factor in that in both cases there have probably been a couple of rounds of metric to imperial conversion and back between the factory's internal measurements and published specs. So basically, you can't deduce anything about which neck is longer just from numbers pulled off webpages.
All that said, my guess is that they're actually the same scale-length and neck length, and the difference in feel has to do with how far out from the body the necks stick (AF95 attaches at the 14th fret, ES-339 at the 19th). If there's a perceived difference in string tension, I'd attribute that to differences in neck profile, tailpieces, and set-up.
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For differences this small the impression of "this one feels shorter" probably has more to do with "this one is easier to play", at least if neckjoin and bodysize/shape are the same.
??? Originally Posted by John A.
If you want a guitar to play in accepted tune, the scale length determines the placement of every fret relatively to the nut and saddle?!
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First time this year! Originally Posted by lydian_dorian
No, you are right.
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Ah, you didn't mention different strings. Originally Posted by lydian_dorian
In theory, all things equal, the longer scale should feel tighter, but .05 is near nothing for that.
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Might be "geometric" or "perceptual" Originally Posted by lydian_dorian
- neck feels "longer or shorter" as geometric (possibly correct)
Explained by the place along the neck (particular fret) where it joins the body, and/or the body shape (relation of strap pins to the bridge... think about it). If you compare by playing the same thing (on same frets). the position of your fingering hand distance from your body may be different - finger board feeling longer or shorter as arm "reach"
- neck feels "longer or shorter" as perceptual (possibly misinterpretation)
Lots of possibilities: different strings, different action, different relief, different radius... different string length from tuning peg to seating of ball-end
That last one determines the force effort to chord, and fret, pick, or bend a string. The length of string outside the sounding length between the nut and bridge saddle (outside meaning between the nut and tuners and between the saddles and seating in the tail piece) determines the total length of string subject to being stretched... the more of that, the slinkier they will feel. If you bend strings, the more of that the further you have to push the string to reach your bend pitch. Work is force through distance, so with longer length of string subject to being stretched, that feels easier as well.
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Maybe the shape and length of the body? Just taking a stab but the size of the upper bout and the way your hand lands on the fingerboard. etc
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Regarding scale length, I don't even really notice that much difference between 24.75 and 25", though there is a bit of difference in string tension. I definitely do notice 25 1/2", which is a bit too long for me to play certain things on now, unfortunately. And has even more tension.
But string tension can vary for many reasons. One of the best repair guys I know of, an expert on vintage repair, told me that in all of his years he has been unable to determine why one neck feels loose and another doesn't.
Between my two 25" arch tops, one feels looser than the other, though neither is a problem.
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The total length of the string affects perceived tension. A guitar with a stop tailpiece will generally feel stiffer than one with a relatively short trapeze tailpiece, and the length of the strings beyond the nut also affects perceived tension. The longer the total string length, the softer the feel.
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All else equal, perhaps. But neck profile, frets, how the the neck sits in relation to the body/arms, and probably other factors beyond those all affect how hard it feels to press a string down (hence perceived tension). Originally Posted by sgosnell
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I've played 24.75 for decades. 25.5 always felt too big.
Then I got a Yamaha Pacifica 012. The neck is very skinny in every dimension. Scale is 25.5. Yet, I don't have any problem with the longer scale. Skinny neck makes all the difference.
I think that it's the combination of longer scale and bigger neck that I'd been interpreting as too-long-a-scale.
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Everything affects everything else, of course. Many things affect perceived tension, some (many) of which can be difficult to quantify. Break angle over the bridge, changes in direction at the nut, the smoothness of the nut and saddle slots, and more things than I can probably think of all contribute, I fully agree. I don't reject anything, but I think more overall string length results in softer feel almost every time. By how much, that's variable, no doubt. Originally Posted by John A.
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