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I have heard several times recently how good “good” vintage Fender black panel amps can be. While I have not yet had the opportunity to play a vintage black panel amp, I have played PCB reissues, digital modeled versions, and a high end boutique ab763 based amp.
For those of you who own, or have played, one of these “good” vintage amps, do they actually have that something special tone-wise? Is it more the mojo of such an amp? Or a bit of both?
And, will a modern boutique that takes care to recreate a vintage spec amp (via component selection, materials, and construction techniques) get you most of the way to a true vintage specimen?
Cheers!
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07-05-2024 08:55 PM
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Every time I plugged into a BF Fender, I thought they sounded very good to great. Black panel Bassman, Twin Reverb, Princeton Reverb are 3 that I owned. And then some 1980's Rivera designed amps, SuperChamp, Concert, and Princeton Reverb II - all great.
Speakers do make a big difference.
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The AB763 (blackface) circuit combined with a good speaker is a joy to play imho. I have a Japanese Guyatone Twin Reverb clone that hast the AB763 circuit and a pair of old late 70ies Pyle speakers with the blue Fender label on it. A superb amp.
I have never played a vintage 60ies blackface amp but I can imagine an old Jensen speaker and good output transformer can add a little vintage mojo conpared to modern amp with the same circuit. And perhaps the old blue molded caps as well (but I’m not a big believer in cap-mojo). Don’t know if it would be that much better to justify the vintage price….
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I have a couple SF Twins that I had blackfaced. They are really good sounding amps and reliable as well but there is no special "mojo" compared to any other high quality amp other than what your playing can put into it. There are a lot of nice amps that will get you where you want to be but a big, loud, clean amp will demand cleaner technique, so there is that to consider.
There are very few working "true vintage" specimens cause many of the components and tubes have been changed out at this stage. Fortunately for the working musician there is not a lot of real world difference IME between say having the original caps installed vs having them replaced. Both amps I have have been serviced a couple times each. I had one amp completely gone through, almost totally rebuilt, new choke and all, and it still sounds like a Twin. The speakers and tube selection will make a bigger difference in the voicing of the amp than any small internal components getting changed out.
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The short answer is “yes”. But whether they’re worth the cost and effort it takes to get one and keep it in top shape today is “it depends”. There’s no doubt that if the sound of a BF appeals to you, an original in excellent condition is the grail. But “BF amps” include little Champs, big Twins, and several models between them in power, size, and features. A smokin’ Champ is a different animal from a Deluxe, and a Twin is not just a louder version of a smaller model. So it’s up to you what you like, what you need, and whether an original BF is right for you.
The best sounding amp I ever played through was an early BF Vibrolux in the original solid pine cabinet. It was a beautiful, rich, warm amp that did great clean jazz with my archtops (a 165 and an X500 at the time) and great dirty blues with a Tele and the ESP 7 that started me on the transition from 6s. A friend had bought it new, and the first time I played through it was about 1995. He gigged with it at least a few times a week, so it was well broken in (whatever that means) but kept in excellent condition. I offered him crazy $ for it, but he wouldn’t sell it.
My first BF Fender amp was a 15” Pro I bought new in 1963. Since then, I’ve had 2 BF Twins, a Deluxe, a Princeton Reverb II, and a BF Bassman 50 head. I’ve also owned several SF amps including one Vibrolux plus a few Twins and Princetons. I still own a Twin and a Princeton, plus the blonde kit clone of a 2x6L6 Vibrolux sized 2x10 with reverb but no trem that JazzKritter built years ago. The Twin and Princeton are still two of the best sounding amps I’ve ever used.
Can you get the same tone in a new amp? Yes you can, but I think it’s partly a matter of luck to get the perfect set of parts in the right cab with the right speakers. There was a fair amount of variation among the same BF models in the same production year, and no other BF Vibrolux I ever played through sounded quite a wonderful as the one I describe above. Most BF Fenders still in use have had many repairs and parts replacements. Many original speakers are reconed or long gone. So a BF bought today that’s been well used is almost certainly at least partly new inside. My Princeton has new transformers, caps and speaker. My Twin has a new power transformer, caps, and speakers.
We have a CS PR at the club where I play twice a week. Today’s list price for it is $2900. It’s very nice, and I don’t know for sure if I could tell it from an original in a blind test on a gig. I’m pretty sure I could, and I’ve probably used it at least 150 times. My impression is that it’s a little constricted, and the transition to breakup when pushed is neither as long nor as smooth as the originals. To me, it’s a waste of money. We also have a production “Custom 68 Vibrolux” that’s nowhere near as great as an original SF or BF. Even at half the cost of the CS versions, these clones are just not the equals of their namesakes.
I’m currently doing a comparison of my Princeton with a friend’s Li’l Dawg Choco Prince, a boutique brown Princeton clone that looks to me to be as well or better built than original Fenders. The Choco Prince is a fine little amp that sounds great with my guitars (all 7 strings) from carved archtops to solids. It’s a little louder before breakup than my Princeton, and it’s lighter. But to be honest, my Princeton sounds just a hair richer and bigger. Is that worth 2 1/2 to 3 times the cost? We each have to answer that one for ourselves. I’d use a Li’l Dawg for less than half the cost. My 3 old school Fenders will probably never leave my home.
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Aside from a period of about 5 yrs when I was into the "brown sound" and took a detour using an early 50s Gibson GA-50 I've used a blackface Twin or Vibrolux on every gig I've ever worked over the past 40 yrs.
They're all they're advertised to be and never cease to amaze me.
People tell me this or that new amp can get the same sound but I've yet to hear it. There's a certain sound those old transformers, blue molded caps and a nice set of vintage glass provides that is just unobtanium in anything I've ever plugged into. A big part of that sound is the original brown and gold foil label Jensen C10N or C12N speakers I use as well, my all time favorites.
There's going to be variations from amp to amp but I've never played through a bad sounding orig BF Fender so I'd highly recommend trying one, you probably won't regret it. I have so many of them at this point it's kind of comical, but over the yrs when I'd cross paths w one that was reasonably priced I'd just buy it, I like having them around and there was a time I'd keep some at various friends houses for rehearsals so I wouldn't have to transport them. Haven’t bought one in many years, they're very expensive now, so instead of having a 401K or similar, I suppose they're a little safety net for a rainy day.
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I have owned, in my time, an original Fender BF Deluxe Reverb (1960s), BF Super Reverb (1960s), SF master volume Twin Reverb (mid 1970s), red knob Concert (1990s iirc) and Mesa Boogie Mark IIb (early 1970s).
Originally Posted by Campbell_jazz
At my level of ability (not all that elevated) and taste ( well ...), they have no special something tone-wise. What the Deluxe and Super have is the capability for the user to get a good to very good tone with ease, minimal effort, and minimal tweaking. The Twin was OK, and I never liked the Concert. The Boogie was pretty good.
As for the boutique question, I can't answer that. Over the years my tastes have changed and I now use solid-state clean amps (e.g., Evans 80). I am no longer chasing 1950s and 1960s Fender amp tones.
Additionally, I'm one of those benighted individuals who claims that in a band mix in a live environment the difference between old amps and new amps is hard to discern, if set to the same tone area. I prefer using a solid state clean amp with effects to get tones. Keep in mind that I'm not a great player so take my observations with some NaCl.
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I have owned a couple of the reissue Fender Blackface amps and one genuine vintage example. The Vintage amp simply sounded better whether I used vintage tubes or modern tubes.
You get what you pay for.
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I have a 1964 Princeton non-reverb that I keep at home. Born in the early 1950’s, I came of age in the 1960’s. The first time I played a chord through it, I heard the tone of those guitars I heard from the old transistor radio of my youth. It was magical! If the brown panel Princeton was the brash pimple-faced teenager, the 1964 was a tall elegant woman with a martini in her hand.
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Remember these were expensive back then and hand wired as well. So I will try and answer my experiences with many of these different models as bestI can. I’m 67 and have played since basically 1970 and professionally since 1975 as a backround.
Most of the Blackface models were very good and warm sounding as well. I especially liked the Twin,Pro,Vibrolux,Deluxe, and even Princeton Reverb models!
That said the first Silver Faced versions were basically the same as the last versions of the Black Faced models as well. And so a much better value in the used market.
To be honest, unless money or collectible is not an issue for you.There are probably better choices available for way less money or Boutique Builds such as Carr, Victoria, Dr Z. even Mesa Boogie amongst others.
I went solid state with Quilter almost 10 years ago and actually prefer the non maintenance,weight,better Clean Headroom, and overall package better! But I’m old and am moved to purchase as a player first and foremost. And I have owns a couple of real Dumbles and way too many Vintage Guitars when they where still affordable.
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Interestingly enough, Fender's early Silverface Champ/Vibro Champ, Princeton, and Princeton Reverb were very close to their former Blackface/Blck Panel models, with only cosmetic changes to the line. Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
Also, it's great to see another fan of Fender's Rivera-era amps of the 80's. They were hand wired, point-to-point marvels created by Jahns and Rivera. Word has gotten out about these awesome rigs, and very high market prices have reflected their renewed popularity.
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The Rivera-era amps are not really blackface, although they have black faces. They have novel wiring schemes, and were the last hand-wired Fender amps in routine production. They sound magnificent, they are rugged and they are not expensive.
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I think the Two Rock best captures the blackface magic without all the issues that come with Fender amps.
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Obviously not black panel, but this may have more magic in it than any amp I’ve played. Run it into an external 212 cab and it offers up even more. It can be pretty unforgiving though.
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I’ve always found it best to not get to dependent on the Great Gear.
And though I’m a total Gear Junkie, it’s the best advice someone ever gave me!
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I had a silver Twin with JBLs. It weighed the same as a Black Hole. It had a handle, but it was a cruel joke.
What I remember was a really strong attack when I played a note. I guess it nailed the transient when plucking a string. All that headroom? I didn't care for it. Too bright, too forward, if that descriptor makes any sense. I've always thought it had to do with the JBLs, but I don't really know.
As far as I can recall, I've never played a black face. People I respect speak most highly of the Vibrolux.
I'm guessing when they were new, each example of a given model would sound pretty much the same. But buying them as 60 year old amps, I doubt that's the case.
And, to stray even further off topic, these days I think in terms of "which amp gives me my sound" and not "which amp is better".
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I have owned several original blackface Fenders. They sounded very good. But as a gigging musician who needs reliable equipment every night, I prefer something that is newer. I just don’t think old amps are worth the trouble and expense. There are plenty of great modern tube amps.
I’m very happy with my Carr Rambler.
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Headroom is just the difference in dB between the maximum output at or below rated distortion and the level at which you're playing. As a practical matter, headroom is a measure of how much louder you can get than you are playing before your signal begins to break up. So I don't think that was the cause of your disfavor with the tone. I wonder if you had one of the master volume Twins, which might explain your dislike of the sound. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
There were multiple variants of the SF Twin, a few of which didn't sound as good as the gold standard 85W AB763 BF Twin. The first few of the 1968 run were identical in circuit design to the BF amps. But early in ‘68, they changed the bias circuit (to semi-cathode) as well as the phase invertor and output stages, and it was then rated at 100W. You can recognize this circuitry because it had a bias balance pot. I never had one of these, and there’s still a lot of disagreement about how good or bad they sounded. I assume it was not a success in the market because it didn’t last a year.
For the '69 model run starting in late '68, they returned the bias circuit to the prior fixed configuration, so there was no longer a bias balance pot. In late '72, they pushed the rated output to 135W and added a master volume - but they also added a pull boost, and that really compromised the tone quality. The boost used the signal from the reverb driver to boost the input signal into overdrive, and it sounded terrible to most of us. There was also a "Super Twin" that was rated at 185W. I never played through one of those, but no jazz player I know personally ever used one.
JBLs are clean as a whistle and brighter than Jensens, Oxfords, Utahs etc because the JBLs have a wider frequency range but less fullness in the bass. They're also more efficient, so they'll be louder than the others. I used EVMs in my Boogies, and they were similar to the JBLs but not as bright. The JBLs were anchors, though - IIRC, a Twin with JBLs weighed about 80 pounds.
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You’re the Raymond Chandler of gear posts. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Sometime try lifting a Mesa Boogie Simul Class 1x12” Combo in their wood cab and a EV12L. That’s the only amp as heavy as a Twin with JBL’s
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Pretty sure a Fender Quad Reverb is heavier than a Twin w JBLs, something like 90 lbs iirc. Originally Posted by jads57
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I had a Boogie Mark III. I was young then but lifting the combo amp was ridiculous. So, I bought the head and cabinet. It was a 1x12 Black Shadow speaker. The head was very uncomfortable to move. The cabinet was a little easier. Originally Posted by jads57
Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-07-2024 at 05:15 PM.
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I have a 64 blackface Super Reverb. It's freaking amazing and everyone who's ever played through it or heard it fell in love.
My personal favorite thing is to xy vintage cts and vintage Jensen ceramics.
So yes, amazing amps. But, the right silverface Fender is almost the same amp in a different dress. Do your research and check your local craigslist.
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I have a 1966 Fender Deluxe Reverb and a 1966 Fender Princeton. Have had another BF DR and BF Pro Reverb. All sound or sounded great. I've had three reissues. Pretty good, but no contest. If you're gigging, the audience won't know or care what you have. Silverface 70s versions are definitely worth considering.
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I have a Twin with some 350 watt speakers that weighs more than 90lbs. Maybe I need a Quad Reverb loaded with 4 JBLs, I bet that would be fun at a couple of the loud gigs. Either that or a Super Six Reverb with some 10 inch JBL's or maybe some Force10 EV's. I bet it would sound huge. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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