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It seems like most pros play either Gibson or Benedetto professionally. Peter Bernstein, Bob DeVos, and Bobby Broom come to mind as exceptions. There are dozens of luthiers making great guitars but it doesn't seem like pros use them much. I wonder why.
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07-04-2024 08:00 PM
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I’m sure there will be plenty of other examples, but there are lots of pro players playing boutique luthier guitars.
Pasquale Grasso has apparently been seen with a Gibson recently, but he’s still definitely playing his Trenier. Ted Ludwig is often seen with a Ribbecke or Manzer. There’s a couple just to start.
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Check out this thread for a discussion of boutique guitar playing jazz pros:
Well known boutique players
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There are a lot of guitarists out there playing boutique instruments professionally. Not only archtops, but also semi-hollow and solidbody guitars. There's an awful lot of boutique Telecaster style guitars in use, for example, but it can be hard to tell from looking.
I think musicians playing gigs may opt for less expensive instruments when there is risk of damage from traveling or at a bar gig, risk of theft, etc., or even as a matter of space; there were gigs that I have opted to use a semi-hollow or a solidbody because the stage was just so small that there really wasn't enough room for myself, a large guitar and the rest of the band.
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Wes Montgomery famously wanted a standard factory model, because he could get another almost anywhere should the need arise. I can't speak for any other professional guitarists, but perhaps that may have something to do with their choices. It doesn't seem quite so easy these days, with the relative dearth of both guitar stores in general, and of professional quality archtops in the big box stores like Guitar Center, but they still do exist.
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Well that's a real eye-opener. Thanks a lot.
Originally Posted by v281
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Back in my gigging days, I stopped taking my main jazz box and more expensive tube amp towards the end of my career because the crime rate and number of car jacking and armed robberies in my city shot up. I switched to a solid state amp and a cheaper archtop. I also got tired of carrying around a heavy tube amp that could crap out. Most of the time the audience won’t tell the difference between a boutique guitar and a cheaper model besides the appearance.
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Wes had his own reasoning and that might have been relevant 60 years ago but TODAY the situation is totally different, no comparison. I also doubt that if the situation had come up in his time where he needed a replacement L5 for an upcoming gig FAST it would actually have been so easy to score a rare, exclusive and expensive L5CES in the local music store... a Tele maybe but his particular model ? Hmmmm.... Originally Posted by sgosnell
Re the OP's question : not all pro players post photos in social media so what we see there should not be the basis of any speculation. Speaking for myself : I play between 10 and 15 gigs in a good month but VERY rarely advertise - as a sideman/hired help it feels arkward to me but that is totally subjective. On most gigs I use one of my "boutique" guitars, along with one of my 2 vintage Gibsons, an OME banjo and a Warmoth parts-caster Tele. We also never know what the guys have sitting at home, in their studio etc. that they don't take out to gigs.
Besides all that : the prices for most luthier-made guitars have gone up very steeply , out of reach for MANY pro players who - as we all know - do NOT make a whole lot of money.
The majority of these luthiers would not be in buisiness without all the well-off amateur players , collectors , guitar afficionados all over the world.
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many of them are getting free instruments. That's why they use those as opposed to hand made, boutique instruments. Also, guys living in NYC are paying $3k/month in rent and making $125 for a nightly gig. Add in a family , health care, bills and it doesn't leave much room for a boutique instrument. Originally Posted by voyage
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There it is. Originally Posted by jzucker
They're very expensive. Easier to afford as a lawyer or doctor than as a working musician.
(also bear in mind, that it's hard to invest in an unknown quantity. If you have one big purchase in your wallet, then you're going to go with something you know will be worth it. Even if there might be something truly exceptional out there, you might not have the money or time to give it a few tries to find that something.)
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As others noted, the premise of the question is wrong, as many pro players do use "boutique" instruments (whatever that means; I'd call Benedetto boutique, fwiw). But to the extent that more play factory-made guitars, I think the main reason is because they like them and they're good guitars. You're not going to find a better boutique implementation of the most commonly played designs (e.g., GB10, ES-175, ES-335, L5, Tele, Strat). You'll only find different. Most people are able to find exactly what they want off the shelf without going custom/boutique. Also, to the extent that you're wrapped up in the mystique of vintage Gibsons and Fenders (which a lot of people are), by definition a new custom luthier-made guitar ain't that.
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Another thing to consider is that pro guitarists who do have boutique archtops may only use them at home or in the studio rather than on a live gig where the guitar is at risk.
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Pasquale Grasso, Lage Lund, Kurt Rosenwinkel (plays a LOT of guitarist tbf, some high end some production), Mike Moreno, Chico Pinheiro all play high end boutique archtops off the top of my head. Originally Posted by voyage
I would say actually more pros play indie made arch tops than Gibsons. Gibsons are a little bit out of fashion, although the 335 still has a real cache (it's a super versatile guitar that always sounds good live.)
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Reverence for an instrument is a funny thing. Some feel it for all instruments regardless of their origin or market value. Others feel it only for those they love. Yet others feel it only for those they own. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Many years ago, my band played an early set at Chris’s here in Philly before Jimmy Bruno’s show. This was during his 7 string phase, and he was playing the Benedetto archtop 7 that’s been popping up for sale at crazy prices ever since.
I was shocked at how careless he was with it. He stuck his lit cigarettes under the strings above the nut. When taking a break, he tossed the guitar on top of the piano. While we were talking during the break, I said something like how much I’d love to have one like it, and I asked him how Bob B feels about the obvious signs of abuse. He told me it was just a tool and he (ie JB) didn’t care.
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To put that in perspective, $125 is what I used to get paid for playing weddings in New York and Queens- 50 years ago! Originally Posted by jzucker
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And to continue on the original question, many gigs aren't just pure jazz gigs, maybe you need to play a bit of funk or rock or blues, in which case maybe a guitar that can cover those styles is in order. Even playing with a big band can require that. I have a friend who played bass in one, he would bring an upright, a fretless and a regular bass to a gig, pedals, maybe even two amps- he filled up an entire Volvo wagon with gear! Just crazy. Originally Posted by bluejaybill
Last edited by bluejaybill; 07-05-2024 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Hah, the Zeidler Pete Bernstein plays was commissioned by a Philly guitarist we both know who shall remain nameless. I think it's the second archtop John made 40 + years ago. Anyway he brought it to John for an adjustment and it was all messed up cosmetically, 'liquids' had been spilled on it, etc. An argument ensued and next thing you know the guitar was put up for sale, I don't think the owner appreciated being told how to treat a guitar he paid for, but John had no tolerance for his guitars being abused regardless of how they were obtained. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
But all's well that ends well, Pete's very careful w it but it does show various dings and marks a guitar inevitably gets that's been gigged around the world and is certainly in the right hands. Who knows, if it hadn't been abused Pete might not be playing a Zeidler today, he was on the list to have one built when John got sick and might not have been able to afford a used one later if that one hadn't popped up for sale right around then for a very reasonable price.
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Because a lot of them are well built but don’t sound good if you’re looking for a classic sound
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Years ago, Howard Alden was hanging with me at my Santa Cruz CA home. He had his Benedetto oval hole 7 string with him and we spent most of the afternoon just playing tunes. When we went to take a break, Howard carelessly put his Benedetto on the floor, leaned against a rocking chair! I could not deal with that and I rushed to get a guitar stand to protect what I knew to be a rare and valuable instrument. At the time, all I could think of was the old adage "Easily acquired, lightly regarded". Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
John Jorgensen (a truly underappreciated guitarist if ever there was one) once told me a story about Joe Pass that I will repeat here. John was at an airport waiting for his Calton case protected guitar to come down the conveyor belt at the airport when he saw a guitar come through in a gig bag! John said he could not believe that anyone would be so careless to do that so he took the gig bag wrapped guitar off of the moving belt and noticed a name tag that said "Joe Pass". John told me that he didn't believe it could belong to the real Joe Pass. But sure enough, Joe Pass himself came up and grabbed the guitar. I asked John if he approached Joe and John told me that for some reason he was a bit intimidated and failed to do so (I get that, we are talking about Joe Pass!). I wonder what guitar Joe Pass had in that bag. Some cats just don't fret about gear it seems......
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On the practical side the number of Gibson guitars alone would vastly be more than any of the boutique guitars all put together. The sheer number of them simply allows a player to have access to these instruments and the price so that boutique is not much of a factor. Think of all the fine guitarist in the US with decent abilities on the instrument who play at a high level but will never be known outside maybe the particular region.
Practically speaking a 175 or and L5 is all one needs to have a great jazz guitar that does the needed business of making music. After these 2 guitars we are simply splitting hairs to get to another level. We all get restless at times, so we search out that is the human condition.
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some top players have custom signature models made by large factory name brands..Scofield, Carlton, Govan, Quayle and others come to mind.
and companies like Suhr and Tom Anderson produce top quality guitars..and if you desire more than standard fare..their custom shops
can go all out for you. Suhr has a signature Scott Henderson model as do other players.
Fender and Gibson offer custom models and Im sure many players have come across one that hits the mark.
Years back in a local shop I got to play a Fender custom Strat..yes it was one of the best I have ever played...and it was priced that way too!
Outside of the "boutique" name and perhaps the status..I find the quality of some major brands and their custom offerings can
give you a top of the line instrument..priced accordingly...Now some may want the status of a boutique brand.
John McLaughlin has played many brands..boutique and major brand custom made and Im sure many pros have had their instruments
customized to one degree or another.
I feel the boutique brands are in no danger of feeling left out of the market..there will always be someone that wants something.."special"
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The "it's just a tool" line always makes me laugh,especially if you paid 5K or more for that guitar.Hate to tell them but there are a lot cheaper tools to get the job done.I see that attitude more among rock,blues guys who like the mojo of a beat up guitar or as i heard someone once call it the Stevie Ray Vaughn syndrone. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
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Lots of NYC players are out gigging with boutique instruments. Off the top of my head: Originally Posted by jzucker
David Allen - Victor Baker
Charles Altura - Westville
Sheryl Bailey - McCurdy
Peter Bernstein - Zeidler
Paul Bollenback - Benedetto, Borys
Freddie Bryant - Trenier
Steve Cardenas - Valle
Ed Cherry - Wilkie, Valle
Liberty Ellman - Collings
Pasquale Grasso - Trenier
Tom Guarna - Collings
Gilad Hekselman - Moffa, Victor Baker
Daan Kleijn - Campellone, Westville
Julian Lage - Manzer, Collings
Max Light - Collings
Lage Lund - Schottmueller, Westville
John Merrill - Zeidler
Pat Metheny - Manzer, Slaman
Mike Moreno - Marchione, Moffa
Miles Okazaki - Slaman
Chico Pinheiro - Benedetto
Will Sellenraad - Trenier
Yotam Silberstein - Benedetto, Westville, Valle
Mark Whitfield - Marchione
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I must protest. If all we needed was an L5 or an ES175, then that’s all people would have. Originally Posted by deacon Mark
Es-175’s feedback too much as do L5’s and the necks on Es-175’s are all over the place. The neck heel is also crude and the guitar is not very comfortable to play. Hence why many people don’t play them, even though they could. In fact the majority of players do not play Es-175’s or L5’s.
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Wes and Joe played them and Kenny had a Super 400. For me this is main trunk of the tree. I find these guitars quite comfortable to play. Others may not including you……get a boutique guitar made exactly like you need. Feedback never been a real problem for me but I don’t play in situations that might tend to that more. Originally Posted by Archie
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