More affordable alternatives to the Gibson L-5 and ES-175?

[2bornot2bop]

Don’t sleep on the Epiphone Premium ES175. Add Lollar pickups, a new wire harness, and switch, and for less than $2k you’ve got an excellent guitar. Same dimensions as a Gibson ES175.

[Archie]

Ask sellers if the neck is straight, does the truss rod work, what the fret life is like. Are there any cracks to the body, has the top sunk etc.. Most sellers won't know but will say yes it's all fine. If the guitars turns up and it's not, then you can send it back. The best clue is if someone has put really light string on an archtop. Most archtop players use 11 to 12 gauge strings; Many use 13 gauge! So if you inspect the neck on an archtop and it looks straight but the strings are really light, you need to check the truss rod. 9/10 it’s usually the strings are light to stop the neck from bowing as it can't be straightened.
To check for a sinking or sunken top, hold the body up to your eye line (like a violinist holds a violin), look across the archtop plate (so bottom of the guitar will be in line with your nose) and look across the F-holes. If the inside edge of the f-holes is lower or the same hight as the outer edge, then there’s a potential problem. Don’t forget, you're looking for a consistent arch.

Vintage Japanese

The Greco and Ibanez are all made by the same manufacturer. I see Greco as more of a domestic Japanese brand than Ibanez. You could also include Antoria, which is a cheaper brand but many of their models are identical to the Ibanez and Greco. They just don’t command the market value. I think Greco might no longer be in existence.

It depends how cheap you're trying to be and from your budget, it seems that you can afford to buy something pretty good, so an older Japanese copy might actually be slightly less quality than you can afford (talking ES-175’s here). If someone were to say “I want an ES-175 copy for under $2k” then a natural place to look would be the older Japanese guitars.
I you have $3k then you can look at newer Japanese models. The difference will be an improvement in quality control although worth stating that the older post 77 Japanese stuff, was really well made and has held up well over time. What you won’t get from newer archtops is ‘mojo’ which older guitars have in spades. To use the phrase of our time, older archtops are 'a vibe’.
If you’re actually happy to pay between $1,500-$2k and would prefer something with mojo, then I would say post 1977 Japanese copies are a great place to look. Honestly, there probably is no other place you could. I say post 77 because the quality control was much better than pre 77.
Some models to look out for would be the Ibanez 2355M (maple blonde version). These later became the FA-100 series in the late 70’s early 80’s; again really nice guitars.
For Greco it would be the FA-67-70, FA-95, FA-80 FA700. These model designations are a bit odd. I’m told they refer to the year of ES175 copied. The earlier numbers were Greco's made in the late 70’s and the later numbers, FA80/95 were made in the early 80’s. The FA 95 is different from the FA67-70/80 models, the body is slightly smaller.

One thing to bare in mind with these copies is neck width. I find generally the Ibanez necks to be fine, but the Greco ones could be on the thinner side, especially the 67-70 copy.

Here are some examples

Ibanez 2355M


Ibanez FA-100



Greco 67-70



Greco FA80 (notice the body is a little smaller than the FA67-70. Mostly the upper bout isn't as wide).





If you’re looking for an L5 model, then the Ibanez 2460/2470/2471 and the FA700/800 come highly recommended. The early 24 models are pre 1980, the FA models post 1980.

Examples are

Ibanez 2460





Ibanez FA700



I've tried a few Greco L5 copies and I was a bit disappointed. The same with the Epiohone’s from Matsumoko. The Ibanez branded ones seem to be the more accurate.


American

If you want something else with bags of mojo, old Epiphones and Guilds are a great shout but then you're looking at $2k+ for sure. In fact all the L5 copies I've shown above will be nearer or over $3k in todays market, so a used Guild would be a great option and frankly my preferred one.

Guild X500



Guild X-150




guild x 500 | eBay

Guild X175 Blonde Manhattan Vintage Guitar | eBay


I won’t go in to the Seventy Seven offers and Tokai FA’s. There’s so much to choose from but I've covered the more vintage stuff and US stuff in that range. You could look at older American made Epiphone's but they are a different type of archtop in terms of sound imo. I’m sure many here can help you learn more about the others.

One piece of advice I would give and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I would stay away from cheaper Archtops if you can afford to. They are great for the money and almost all of us late Gen X’s started on something out of Korea. The people advising you on them aren't wrong but an X175/X500X160 etc.. are worlds apart from anything out of Korea, or China, and even Japan to be fair. It's just a different league.
I remember I couldn't get out of my Korean Epiphone fast enough and when I did upgrade to an Ibanez 2355, I was over the moon. That’s when my passion for Archtops really took off. Of course I then stepped up from a 2355 to a Es-175. That’s how it goes; but there is no step up from a good Guild.

[AllanAllen]

I'd prefer something 25.5" BUT I'd be very happy with a great 24.75" guitar such as an ES-175. I mean eventually I'll have some form of an ES-175 AND some form of an L5 lol.

Epiphone. Broadway is 25.5, Joe Pass is 24.75

I like the broadway, no need to go with an elitist. The regular ones are good too, I think Epiphone is a step up from Ibanez, could have just been the Ibanez I played.

[Archie]

Many have badly deteriorated binding, though not all.

I think Ibanez (fuji-gen) went through a phase in construction where whatever they were doing, caused binding and finish issues. This seemed to mostly be on the artist series. Jimmy Blue Note will have a batter view on it than I. Just look at any old JP20, GB10, GB20, AR artist. I've not seen it though on the non artist models, the FG-100, FA-100. I’ve seen it on a couple of L5 copies but not many. I've never seen it on a 2355.

I think it was only for about 2-3 years.

[BreckerFan]

+1 on the Guild X-150. I've had mine for about a month and a half. Kind of silly that you can get this level of guitar for less than a new Eastman or Peerless.

[wintermoon]

I think Ibanez (fuji-gen) went through a phase in construction where whatever they were doing, caused binding and finish issues. This seemed to mostly be on the artist series. Jimmy Blue Note will have a batter view on it than I. Just look at any old JP20, GB10, GB20, AR artist. I've not seen it though on the non artist models, the FG-100, FA-100. I’ve seen it on a couple of L5 copies but not many. I've never seen it on a 2355.

I think it was only for about 2-3 years.

I've seen it on a lot of 2460's, I've owned a couple myself, but the OP was referring to old Japanese guitars in general not just Ibanez, there are many Aria's etc w/ bad binding for example.

[tremolo]

Don’t sleep on the Epiphone Premium ES175. Add Lollar pickups, a new wire harness, and switch, and for less than $2k you’ve got an excellent guitar. Same dimensions as a Gibson ES175.

what is a reasonable price range for these? I see a few people wanting just over $1k but they don’t seem to be selling (to be fair I don’t know if this market is as hot as just general fender/gibson solid body stuff).

[deacon Mark]

One option is buy a real American made guitar a Heritage. Way undervalued and options, some Golden Eagles will sound like an l5. Many options for the 175 types, to me this is simply the only way to go...............no other options add the same and equal your endeavor.

[Gitfiddler]

One option is buy a real American made guitar a Heritage. Way undervalued and options, some Golden Eagles will sound like an l5. Many options for the 175 types, to me this is simply the only way to go...............no other options add the same and equal your endeavor.

This ^^^

Check out the Heritage Eagle Classic. Unlike GIbson, they still build them and the price is very fair for a solid wood archtop.

Eagle Classic - Hollow Body Guitar | Heritage Guitars

[tremolo]

Heritage Eagle Classic in blonde is my number one pick right now. But if I find a killer deal on a good 175 then I will get that first. Ultimately, I'd like both.

[tremolo]

Ask sellers if the neck is straight, does the truss rod work, what the fret life is like. Are there any cracks to the body, has the top sunk etc.. Most sellers won't know but will say yes it's all fine. If the guitars turns up and it's not, then you can send it back. The best clue is if someone has put really light string on an archtop. Most archtop players use 11 to 12 gauge strings; Many use 13 gauge! So if you inspect the neck on an archtop and it looks straight but the strings are really light, you need to check the truss rod. 9/10 it’s usually the strings are light to stop the neck from bowing as it can't be straightened.
To check for a sinking or sunken top, hold the body up to your eye line (like a violinist holds a violin), look across the archtop plate (so bottom of the guitar will be in line with your nose) and look across the F-holes. If the inside edge of the f-holes is lower or the same hight as the outer edge, then there’s a potential problem. Don’t forget, you're looking for a consistent arch.

Vintage Japanese

The Greco and Ibanez are all made by the same manufacturer. I see Greco as more of a domestic Japanese brand than Ibanez. You could also include Antoria, which is a cheaper brand but many of their models are identical to the Ibanez and Greco. They just don’t command the market value. I think Greco might no longer be in existence.

It depends how cheap you're trying to be and from your budget, it seems that you can afford to buy something pretty good, so an older Japanese copy might actually be slightly less quality than you can afford (talking ES-175’s here). If someone were to say “I want an ES-175 copy for under $2k” then a natural place to look would be the older Japanese guitars.
I you have $3k then you can look at newer Japanese models. The difference will be an improvement in quality control although worth stating that the older post 77 Japanese stuff, was really well made and has held up well over time. What you won’t get from newer archtops is ‘mojo’ which older guitars have in spades. To use the phrase of our time, older archtops are 'a vibe’.
If you’re actually happy to pay between $1,500-$2k and would prefer something with mojo, then I would say post 1977 Japanese copies are a great place to look. Honestly, there probably is no other place you could. I say post 77 because the quality control was much better than pre 77.
Some models to look out for would be the Ibanez 2355M (maple blonde version). These later became the FA-100 series in the late 70’s early 80’s; again really nice guitars.
For Greco it would be the FA-67-70, FA-95, FA-80 FA700. These model designations are a bit odd. I’m told they refer to the year of ES175 copied. The earlier numbers were Greco's made in the late 70’s and the later numbers, FA80/95 were made in the early 80’s. The FA 95 is different from the FA67-70/80 models, the body is slightly smaller.

One thing to bare in mind with these copies is neck width. I find generally the Ibanez necks to be fine, but the Greco ones could be on the thinner side, especially the 67-70 copy.

Here are some examples

Ibanez 2355M


Ibanez FA-100



Greco 67-70



Greco FA80 (notice the body is a little smaller than the FA67-70. Mostly the upper bout isn't as wide).





If you’re looking for an L5 model, then the Ibanez 2460/2470/2471 and the FA700/800 come highly recommended. The early 24 models are pre 1980, the FA models post 1980.

Examples are

Ibanez 2460





Ibanez FA700



I've tried a few Greco L5 copies and I was a bit disappointed. The same with the Epiohone’s from Matsumoko. The Ibanez branded ones seem to be the more accurate.


American

If you want something else with bags of mojo, old Epiphones and Guilds are a great shout but then you're looking at $2k+ for sure. In fact all the L5 copies I've shown above will be nearer or over $3k in todays market, so a used Guild would be a great option and frankly my preferred one.

Guild X500



Guild X-150




guild x 500 | eBay

Guild X175 Blonde Manhattan Vintage Guitar | eBay


I won’t go in to the Seventy Seven offers and Tokai FA’s. There’s so much to choose from but I've covered the more vintage stuff and US stuff in that range. You could look at older American made Epiphone's but they are a different type of archtop in terms of sound imo. I’m sure many here can help you learn more about the others.

One piece of advice I would give and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. I would stay away from cheaper Archtops if you can afford to. They are great for the money and almost all of us late Gen X’s started on something out of Korea. The people advising you on them aren't wrong but an X175/X500X160 etc.. are worlds apart from anything out of Korea, or China, and even Japan to be fair. It's just a different league.
I remember I couldn't get out of my Korean Epiphone fast enough and when I did upgrade to an Ibanez 2355, I was over the moon. That’s when my passion for Archtops really took off. Of course I then stepped up from a 2355 to a Es-175. That’s how it goes; but there is no step up from a good Guild.

Still making my way through this but I appreciate this write up tremendously

[Alter]

I don’t see anything in tremolo’s posts about being left handed. Did I miss it or are you the lefty, Alter?

I'm left handed. I'm actually looking for exactly that type of guitar also, a laminate 24.75 scale archtop with the wide version of Gibson neck, under 3k. Probably 16' body. I have an Elferink and a Mesrobian, both hand built and excellent guitars, a joy to play at home, but the feedback problems are very real and very limiting in live applications with such instruments.

One thing I've noticed with all the really expensive and meticulously made guitars friends have over the years is that, the more intricate and delicate a guitar is, the more careful you have to be with it. If you store a quality instrument without checking the humidity, sunlight, sweating if you play a lot, etc, you'll have problems down the line, and structural not only cosmetic. With the less responsive and more heavily made guitars you can get away with more mistakes.

I dislike it, but the ideal home and live archtops are very different, especially if you play in less then ideal rooms which we often do.

[olejason]

Stringphonic has some nice L-5ish guitars coming out in a month or two

[2bornot2bop]

what is a reasonable price range for these? I see a few people wanting just over $1k but they don’t seem to be selling (to be fair I don’t know if this market is as hot as just general fender/gibson solid body stuff).

The market is all over the place. But for a very good one with zero issues, I’ve never heard of a single issue with these guitars, what is $1k for a solid instrument these days? That’s nothing. But absolutely finish off the instrument with the aforementioned touches. For less than $2k you’ve got an exceptional archtop that truly is a sleeper.

[Rickco]

I recently bought a '23 guild T50 dynasonic and a '23 guild SF III. "ltd" both Korean. I am playing them right next to a '60 SF III in fine condition. I will say without hesitation the new guitars are not only as "good" as the '60 I think theyre better! This was also the opinion of 2 other very good players with Westerly and Hoboken models of their full size archtops from the U.S. made days. Ive been the caretaker of the '60 for some time and due to its excellent condition was planning to buy it at some point when the owner was ready to let it live at my house permanently, Im no longer interested and payed way less for both guitars together than I would have for 1 U.S. made model. Guild nailed the pickup sound with both the single coil and the mini buckers. That said my vote would be for the Heritage which can still be found in the $3k range if your patient. If you want a real carved archtop I dont think you can beat it without spending twice that.....my 2c

[Archie]

I recently bought a '23 guild T50 dynasonic and a '23 guild SF III. "ltd" both Korean. I am playing them right next to a '60 SF III in fine condition. I will say without hesitation the new guitars are not only as "good" as the '60 I think theyre better! This was also the opinion of 2 other very good players with Westerly and Hoboken models of their full size archtops from the U.S. made days. Ive been the caretaker of the '60 for some time and due to its excellent condition was planning to buy it at some point when the owner was ready to let it live at my house permanently, Im no longer interested and payed way less for both guitars together than I would have for 1 U.S. made model. Guild nailed the pickup sound with both the single coil and the mini buckers. That said my vote would be for the Heritage which can still be found in the $3k range if your patient. If you want a real carved archtop I dont think you can beat it without spending twice that.....my 2c

Oooh I wonder how the Guild forum will take this news lol

On one hand they’ll be happy that both guitars are Guilds but on the other…

In other news, I didn’t know that Guild had been bought out by Yamaha. This could only be a good thing. Yamaha maker stupidly good quality guitars.

[Rickco]

Butler has a killer deal on a golden eagle on reverb, mabey one of big Mikes? that has been mentioned here. Id call them direct

[ES175please!]

What is the go to "cheap" replica model that people buy online from Korea, China, or Japan? May try to get something in the $500 range when I sell my ES-175? Thanks.