Florentine vs Venetian: which one is better?

[Bluedawg]

I like the look of the Venetian rounded cut away.

With all of the other variables, I'm guessing the difference it makes in tone is negligible, but who knows.

I don't spend much time in the upper frets so access to the higher ranges isn't that important to me.

[Cunamara]

Florentine features spinach and Venetian features seafood.

We have to remember that guitars are not designed and built by mechanical engineers, but are a craft with a history of trial and error to define parameters. for the violin family, that history is fairly long; for the guitar family, quite a bit shorter; the archtop guitar family, even shorter still.

One of the problems with assessing the effect of the different kinds of cutaways is that we do listen as much with our eyes as we do with our ears. In a blind test, there is so much variety between different seemingly identical instruments that I think it would be impossible to reliably identified by tone alone whether an instrument has a cutaway or not nor whether the cutaway is Florentine or Venetian. Tim Lerch has shown that it's impossible to even reliably tell whether a guitar is a hollowbody or a solidbody just on sound alone.

I think one should choose cutaway or non-cutaway, Florentine or Venetian, etc., based entirely on subjective preference and not worry about whether there is some objective superiority (which can't be proven anyway). While my current favored guitar is my Gibson ES-175, I prefer the appearance of a Venetian cutaway. However, the ergonomics and amplified tone of the Gibson are just outstanding; I'm getting used to the pointy cutaway.

[RJVB]

FWIW, there's no reason a Venetian cut couldn't be as deep as a Florentine?

[AKA]

The original Heritage builders told me Florentines are harder to make and have more breakage in the process. Obviously the Florentine gives a little more fret access. But is there a difference in stability or tone? Why aren't all archtops the same in the cutaway design?

I believe it’s less functional and more an aesthetic design choice. Luthier Maegan Wells features a distinctive Florentine cutaway in her archtop models.

AKA

[Danny W.]

I've had lots of Venetians, relatively few Florentines:

Early '60s L-4c


'63 S400CES



'64 L-5CES


'66 Byrdland, solid wood back


2005 L-5CES all solid


Early 2000s L-5CEST all solid



Early 2000s Byrdland all solid


I really liked all these guitars; the last two were my favorites. If there were any sonic differences due to the style of cutaway I never noticed.

Danny W.

[Sleeko]

Mine has always been this . . .




But then I happened upon one of these and now I'm confused LoL . . .

[starjasmine]

'66 Byrdland, solid wood back

I don't understand the "solid wood back" notation. I am far from an expert, but this looks like a two-piece back to me. Am I misunderstanding something?

Early 2000s Byrdland all solid

What a uniquely beautiful finish! What is that color called?

[Hammertone]

...I don't understand the "solid wood back" notation. I am far from an expert, but this looks like a two-piece back to me. Am I misunderstanding something?...

In this case, it means that the back is carved from solid wood as opposed to being pressed from laminated wood. It is pretty standard for the carved top and back plates on an archtop guitar to each be made from two pieces of wood with a center seam. The top plate, usually spruce, is typically made from a quartersawn piece of solid spruce that has been "bookmatched" - cut into two pieces, opened like a book and glued together at the center seam.

The same is true of the typically maple (sometimes mahogany) back plate, but with more variations on the theme - a piece can be cut and bookmatched. Sometimes it is not two bookmatched pieces but pieces cut from the same, thinner, plank that are "slipmatched." Sometimes it is quartersawn wood, sometimes it is not. Almost always, there is a center seam, that allows for the use of narrower boards. Sometime it is a three-piece back. Sometimes, the back is carved from a single plank of wood, but this is quite rare. It's hard to find figured wood wide enough for 17" archtops, and there are other reasons as well not to use a one piece back.

The note regarding the solid back on Danny's erstwhile '66 Byrdland is significant because, during the 1960s, most Byrdland, L-5CES and Super 400-CES models with Florentine cutaways also had laminated backs. This makes his old guitar quite unusual.

[Marklin678]

Totally depends on the guitar. Both are lovely.

[Doctor Jeff]

I believe it’s less functional and more an aesthetic design choice. Luthier Maegan Wells features a distinctive Florentine cutaway in her archtop models.

AKA

Don't really like the cutaway, on an otherwise beautiful guitar.

I have an almost phobia about that kind of cutaway, or a flat shoulder on a flattop guitar for instance.

Stylistically, I tend to like a rounded Venetian like the one on my Gretsch Double Anni. However, I'm not averse to Florentines, like on the 135 and 175. They should be a nice semicircle though, not a flattened oval.

The brain likes symmetry and flow. At least my brain does.

[starjasmine]

In this case, it means that the back is carved from solid wood as opposed to being pressed from laminated wood. It is pretty standard for the carved top and back plates on an archtop guitar to each be made from two pieces of wood with a center seam. The top plate, usually spruce, is typically made from a quartersawn piece of solid spruce that has been "bookmatched" - cut into two pieces, opened like a book and glued together at the center seam.

The same is true of the typically maple (sometimes mahogany) back plate, but with more variations on the theme - a piece can be cut and bookmatched. Sometimes it is not two bookmatched pieces but pieces cut from the same, thinner, plank that are "slipmatched." Sometimes it is quartersawn wood, sometimes it is not. Almost always, there is a center seam, that allows for the use of narrower boards. Sometime it is a three-piece back. Sometimes, the back iscarved from a single plank of wood, but this is quite rare. It's hard to find figured wood wide enough for 17" archtops, and there are other reasons as well not to use a one piece back.

The note regarding the solid back on Danny's erstwhile '66 Byrdland is significant because, during the 1960s, most Byrdland, L-5CES and Super 400-CES models with Florentine cutaways also had laminated backs. This makes his old guitar quite unusual.

Thanks for the info!

Sorry to ask, but... is there a difference between the "back" and the "back plate" or are they two names for the same thing?

[RJVB]

Don't really like the cutaway, on an otherwise beautiful guitar.

It does look like something one has to warm up to. I don't know where the name "Florentine" comes from, but this design looks too ... eroded to still be called that way. I'd call it French, after that country's Atlantic coastline (minus the little protrusion between Caen and St. Malo).

The brain likes symmetry and flow. At least my brain does.

Actually, we prefer a slight asymmetry with that. There's been a study of symmetricised faces of canons of beauty and not only do we pain to recognise them, we also tend to find those faces boring.

[AKA]

Thanks for the info!

Sorry to ask, but... is there a difference between the "back" and the "back plate" or are they two names for the same thing?

They are the same.

[AKA]

Don't really like the cutaway, on an otherwise beautiful guitar.

I have an almost phobia about that kind of cutaway, or a flat shoulder on a flattop guitar for instance.

Stylistically, I tend to like a rounded Venetian like the one on my Gretsch Double Anni. However, I'm not averse to Florentines, like on the 135 and 175. They should be a nice semicircle though ……….

File under the old “spice of life” adage

[Archie]

It does look like something one has to warm up to. I don't know where the name "Florentine" comes from, but this design looks too ... eroded to still be called that way. I'd call it French, after that country's Atlantic coastline (minus the little protrusion between Caen and St. Malo).



Actually, we prefer a slight asymmetry with that. There's been a study of symmetricised faces of canons of beauty and not only do we pain to recognise them, we also tend to find those faces boring.

The rule of 3rds

[Sleeko]

I believe it’s less functional and more an aesthetic design choice. Luthier Maegan Wells features a distinctive Florentine cutaway in her archtop models.

AKA

Reminds me of early 1920’s Epiphone models. Like this one for example;

[pauln]

An just to round things out , my old AG75 (old tail piece, I replaced bridge with rosewood) seems to have something in between... a rounded sharp bout.

[AKA]

Yes. Maegan says she is a huge student of vintage instruments; I can imagine she’s seen this.

She’s also into mandolins, and her guitar cutaway is reminiscent of the F5 mandolin as well.

Reminds me of early 1920’s Epiphone models. Like this one for example;

[Gregc57]

I would have guessed it was easier to do the Florentine, rather than making that Venetian bend. Then again, I'm not a builder so I'm talking out my a**. Personally, I love them both and think one of each (at least) is appropriate!

[powerwagonjohn]

I can't get enough of the florentine cutaways!
Thanks john

[RJVB]

Florentine cuts:


Venetian cuts: