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Originally Posted by BreckerFan
But it is important to be clear in communication when you are trying to teach, or help someone.
The problem here is not that the jazz use of the term is different from the dictionary one (which would be fine) - it’s more that if one person - even a jazz musician- says ‘transcription’ it’s not a given that the other person knows exactly what they mean. See this thread for evidence.
It’s also a problem because for instance the answer to the OP question depends on what is meant by ‘transcribe.’ I can’t answer it unless I know more. When someone simply says ‘I transcribed x’, I find myself unsure as to - Did they write it down? Did they not? Did they arrange it for guitar from another instrument from a score (they might use the term that way if they were a classical musician)? Did they learn to play it or not?
So it’s a shit term.
The reason it bugs me is I think people use it because they think it’s a ‘correct’ or ‘technical’ term because it sounds more official. It’s not - it’s a highly ambiguous malapropism that simply sounds more official.
This ambiguity renders ‘transcribe’ more or less useless as a term. For a term to be useful, everyone in the discussion has to agree what it means, and they don’t. (There’s a lot of this in jazz haha.) you may think your definition term is the right one but it’s irrelevant unless everyone agrees, to that use, right? it just becomes a debate about semantics.
One could have course specify what they mean by it before they use it, which is kind of long winded, and there’s a tendency for people then to take umbrage if someone else’s definition is at odds with theirs, and so on and nauseam.
However, I say ‘I learned the Anthropology solo by ear’ or ‘I wrote down the anthropology solo by ear, here it is’, I would say that’s a lot clearer.Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-22-2023 at 12:39 PM.
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08-22-2023 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
transcribe
verb
transitive verb1a
: to make a written copy ofb: to make a copy of (dictated or recorded matter) in longhand or on a machine (such as a typewriter)c: to paraphrase or summarize in writing
d: write down, record2a: to represent (speech sounds) by means of phonetic symbolsb: translate sense 1ac: to transfer (data) from one recording form to anotherd: to record (as on magnetic tape) for later broadcast3
: to make a musical transcription of4: to cause (DNA or RNA) to undergo genetic transcription
Transcribe Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Therefore, in my development using transcriptions has proved very useful. I assuming learning to transcribe would be useful but I just never got around to that.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Actually I don’t care.
The important are you always clear on how everyone is using this word? Because I sure as fuck am not 90% of the time.
I don’t care how much some smart arse defines it at me, it doesn’t change anything lol.
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Your problem is that you assume everybody else is dumb. Naturally 'writing it down' is the usual meaning of the word but that's not the only way to benefit from others' solos. You can just borrow licks. You can, if you can be bothered, literally memorise entire solos, etc.
It doesn't mean that the solo or part-solo is written down in notation but, personally, being an English speaker, I wouldn't use the word 'transcribe' for something memorised. It's bad grammar and is actually nonsense.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
'Writing down by ear' is more precise but a mouthful and not very elegant. And it's not Bird or Wes doing the dictating, it's you and me etc.
I realise there is more than one meaning of transcription but I wouldn't consider the word flowery or un-plain. It's a simple word, one with albeit more than one meaning - which can be gauged from context most the time I'd say, anyway.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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[QUOTE=ragman1;1282398]Your problem is that you assume everybody else is dumb. [/QUOTE.]
everyone says that when I’m making a good point haha.
I just know when people are arguing past what I’m saying for whatever reason.
a better assumption is that people don’t always read what I’m saying very carefully. Which is fair enough…
Natrually 'writing it down' is the usual meaning of the word but that's not the only way to benefit from others' solos. You can just borrow licks. You can, if you can be bothered, literally memorise entire solos, etc.
It doesn't mean that the solo or part-solo is written down in notation but, personally, being an English speaker, I wouldn't use the word 'transcribe' for something memorised. It's bad grammar and is actually nonsense.
I don’t think it’s just me, as people do seem to use it differently whatever in the real world.
I try to be clear myself and it’s best to avoid using the term imo.
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Originally Posted by jameslovestal
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Truth be told, I’ve been following this whole conversation pretty closely because it’s (mostly) interesting, and I’m not even sure what you think you’re calling out.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
But if you’re interacting with folks who didn’t study super formally or move through one of those bigger jazz markets, then it’s easy to see how the term could be confusing. And it certainly is sometimes.
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So can the argument in this thread be solved (in practical terms) by restating it to: “How important is it to learn jazz solos by ear?”, in which case I would say “it can be pretty useful” and others can agree or disagree.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Someone used the expression 'transcribe by ear' in another post. I understand that but it wasn't really what we were discussing at the time. There are plenty of jazz sites where they talk about transcribing as a learning tool and they all, as far as I'm aware, mean committing a recorded solo to notation, TAB, or some other means of ready access.
I don't think I've ever seen it used as memorising. Obviously one can work a solo out on a guitar note by note and then what? Presumably repeat it again and again so that it is effectively memorised? It means that.
So it seems to me that if one is going to use the word it must have some kind of general meaning. If not, then it should be made extremely clear as to what that other meaning is otherwise it'll lead to confusion, which it already appears to be doing. That's all my point.
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Originally Posted by BreckerFan
‘So at one point I transcribed Wes’s solo on four on Six from Smokin at the Half Note’
‘Fantastic, did you learn the whole thing?’
’no just a few choruses before he goes into octaves.’
‘Fantastic, did you write it down?’
’no I just learned to play it, although I’m not sure I could now.’
‘Did you work on any of the language or licks from it?’
’not really’
’could you sing one of the lines now? Or play one? Anything stick in your memory?’
’there was this one line…’
and so on.
I mean it’s all pretty normal, it’s not like I become purple faced with John Cleese style rage anytime anyone mentions the T word, and otoh you always need to discuss things a little further in lessons, but it does seem to me that the word isn’t doing much to assist communication...
I mean the fact that whether I answer the OP yes, no or maybe depends on which definition of transcription is meant is kind of highlighting the issue I think.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by ragman1
EDIT: to put it a little technically there is no actual normative use of the term.
Even the various dictionary definitions you cited kind of reflect that - the musical one is just circular.
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To which you say ‘that’d be a first’ ;-)
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No, I wouldn't. I'd say that's exactly what I think I have been doing.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Jazz musicians use the term the way Brecker says they do. I’m not really sure how to argue that, other than just to say it.
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I assume you mean Brecker the poster here, not Michael Brecker. You'll have to wait till I've read his posts because I haven't yet.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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