Bruce Forman's list of 10 tunes for beginners

[christianm77]

Bruce Forman is usually correct. Those tunes are money in the bank.

‘Easier tunes’ are often easy because they represent a shortcut - don’t prepare the student for the reality of what they will have to play in the long run as a jazz musician.

These songs give you a strong grounding in the standards harmony are you are likely to find.

You might not master them right away, but you will have to master them in order to learn to play jazz.

[guitarbuddy]

But on the other hand getting comfortable with changes and starting to build that "tune muscle" can, in my experience, really benefit from learning some more challenging tunes early on.

Hey, coolvinny. Nothing wrong with learning more challenging tunes, especially if they're ones you want to learn as opposed to the ones on some list. Learning tunes is pretty much always time well spent.

That said, after teaching for 40+ years, the last 15 years in college music programs, the biggest issue I hear in "beginning" jazz players is not being able to improvise over chord changes. The more chord changes, the worse this gets. There are plenty of so-called standards that are useful to know for jam sessions and gigs that have fewer key changes, so as a teacher I recommend learning those tunes first so the newbie can gain some confidence and experience "making the changes." This builds the foundation for improvising on harder tunes, i.e. learn to walk before running.

Another possibility is to learn a harder tune, but then learn an etude or two over those changes, even if you have to write them yourself. Many seasoned players do this as a matter of course when they're working on something new, but a lot of beginners have gotten the mistaken impression that this is "cheating," and then will "improvise" a solo that's complete crap because they don't know what they're doing. Wes Montgomery said that when he played with Lionel Hampton all he knew how to do was play the Charlie Christian solos he'd learned off records, Chick Corea said he composed solos early in his career so he'd know he had something that sounded good, and so on.

[christianm77]

Hey, coolvinny. Nothing wrong with learning more challenging tunes, especially if they're ones you want to learn as opposed to the ones on some list. Learning tunes is pretty much always time well spent.

That said, after teaching for 40+ years, the last 15 years in college music programs, the biggest issue I hear in "beginning" jazz players is not being able to improvise over chord changes. The more chord changes, the worse this gets. There are plenty of so-called standards that are useful to know for jam sessions and gigs that have fewer key changes, so as a teacher I recommend learning those tunes first so the newbie can gain some confidence and experience "making the changes." This builds the foundation for improvising on harder tunes, i.e. learn to walk before running.

Another possibility is to learn a harder tune, but then learn an etude or two over those changes, even if you have to write them yourself. Many seasoned players do this as a matter of course when they're working on something new, but a lot of beginners have gotten the mistaken impression that this is "cheating," and then will "improvise" a solo that's complete crap because they don't know what they're doing. Wes Montgomery said that when he played with Lionel Hampton all he knew how to do was play the Charlie Christian solos he'd learned off records, Chick Corea said he composed solos early in his career so he'd know he had something that sounded good, and so on.

Yeh I think it’s cross purposes. If I have a student wanting to play some jazz who’s only played rock for instance I’m not going to get them to play Green Dolphin Street.

OTOH, GDS is in Bruce’s list because it represents a crucial part of his ‘Rosetta Stone’ of jazz changes that is his list of 10. And of course no intermediate jazz education is complete without it.

Hmmm I’m going to put something out there and say that the vocal standard tunes that we play as jazz musicians tend to be the weird and interesting ones rather than the most popular songs from the period. (Except rhythm changes and honeysuckle rose which between them cover a huge amount of songs, sometimes with the a or the b swapped out)

Going to the vocal rep, a lot of those tunes are much less interesting, but by learning tings like Attya in all 12 you have a great chance of being able to play it.

That said there’s some mad stuff out there lol. A good turn is a good tune....

[joe2758]

GDS is okay, but does anyone else not like the descending chord thing? just the sound of it, not playing it.

[Rufes]

So Footprints (1966) is considered by some people modern jazz...... ok hahahaha

[joe2758]

it's too modern for me and i was born in 86 lol

[Papawooly]

I'm in trouble (after listening to Bruce) as I am a "memorizer"..

I'll study a tune for weeks and get it in my head and play it slowly over and over
until it is completely sequestered and begging for water, then begin to play it more
until it actually sounds OK...

But learn it in another key? Or all 12? Impossible??

No, says Bruce, he says the key is to break the song down into the important parts
and remember how to get from part to part, rather than the actual chords, know instead the
framework or feel...

So, I guess just for fun, one of the next songs I do, I'll have to also do it in at least Eb
as well as the original key and see if I can do it...

Nobody said it will be easy!
It seems like the harder I work at something, the more I appreciate the end result.
...We'll see...

[rmpmcdermott]

So Footprints (1966) is considered by some people modern jazz...... ok hahahaha

Guess it depends on your perspective. If you're a bebop player then it's definitely modern. If you're a fusion player, then it's not. "Modern" doesn't really mean much in the grand scheme, unless you're talking about something like Modernism, which has a more concrete definition and time period.

[coolvinny]

I'm in trouble (after listening to Bruce) as I am a "memorizer"..

I'll study a tune for weeks and get it in my head and play it slowly over and over
until it is completely sequestered and begging for water, then begin to play it more
until it actually sounds OK...

But learn it in another key? Or all 12? Impossible??

No, says Bruce, he says the key is to break the song down into the important parts
and remember how to get from part to part, rather than the actual chords, know instead the
framework or feel...

So, I guess just for fun, one of the next songs I do, I'll have to also do it in at least Eb
as well as the original key and see if I can do it...

Nobody said it will be easy!
It seems like the harder I work at something, the more I appreciate the end result.
...We'll see...

I wonder...when you are "memorizing", how quickly do you get away from the sheet music of chords? And are you learning the melody by ear or from sheet music? The latter is a big no-no IMO; learn all tune melodies by ear. The key to internalizing a tune fast is to get away from sheet music FAST. I do it within about 10 minutes and I'm not a pro. Sounds crazy, but some tunes I can do in 2 minutes and retain if I've listened to them a lot....then I get to work playing them without the music. I will do a new key as soon as possible, often the same day. While doing this I am coming up with logic for why the harmony is the way it is.

[christianm77]

So Footprints (1966) is considered by some people modern jazz...... ok hahahaha

You know what’s 50 years?

But seriously the big divide in the rep is between functional and ‘non functional’ harmony. If you play FP with the correct original changes it’s quite strange.

If your aim is to understand the patterns that are common in vocal standards (ie old pop songs) as opposed to post modal jazz standards (ie tunes written by jazzers), then it’s not a helpful tune.

For post modal stuff the chord progressions can be anything, there’s not so many patterns - so musicians who play that sort of stuff tend to have a chord by chord approach and are not so good at the pattern recognition that straightahead players get really good at.

Of course if you want to learn to play ‘modern’ jazz completely you need to master both. Today’s players have to learn so much compared to previous gens.

TL;DR best advice for practice if you need something to do: LEARN MORE TUNES. Like 100s.

It’s actually practice, not repertoire. You are practicing learning tunes. If you do them by ear, it’s ear training.

Even if you forget them, and we all forget tunes, you practice the process. You need to learn lots to get the process working smooth.

[christianm77]

I wonder...when you are "memorizing", how quickly do you get away from the sheet music of chords? And are you learning the melody by ear or from sheet music? The latter is a big no-no IMO; learn all tune melodies by ear. The key to internalizing a tune fast is to get away from sheet music FAST. I do it within about 10 minutes and I'm not a pro. Sounds crazy, but some tunes I can do in 2 minutes and retain if I've listened to them a lot....then I get to work playing them without the music. I will do a new key as soon as possible, often the same day. While doing this I am coming up with logic for why the harmony is the way it is.

Yeah this is exactly the thing.

[christianm77]

The computer ate my longer reply, so I'm going to keep it short. Bruce has very high expectations if he's putting tunes like All the Things You Are on a beginner's list. I'd scrap about half those and replace them with tunes like Blue Bossa and Dearly Beloved, ones that stay in a couple of keys at most.

I think the hang up here is the term ‘beginner’. I can’t remember what he actually says in the pod, but I don’t know if he used that term, I remember him describing these tunes more as developmental milestones or rites of passage.

But it’s entirely possible to be a beginner at playing changes and to also know these tunes! So the meaning of beginner varies....

I kind of feel it’s a balance - teaching players modal or one or two key stuff gives them a way in if they aren’t jazzers, but if they want to be able to participate in actual jazz music making they have to get comfortable with these tunes obviously.

Depends on the student.

Bruce is an instructor at MI so it’s not pie in the sky.

[Rufes]

Christian, everything you said makes a lot of sense to me. You should remain in the EU

[MarkRhodes]

Elsewhere, Forman refers to this list as a list of "mother tunes." Tunes that are worth knowing but that also open the door to learning many other tunes because so many other tunes share characteristics with these. For example, "ATTYA" teaches you the cycle, in "A-Train" the ii-chord is a dominant, and so on.

[christianm77]

Christian, everything you said makes a lot of sense to me. You should remain in the EU

Oh god don’t.

[Rufes]

Hahaha

[guitarbuddy]

Elsewhere, Forman refers to this list as a list of "mother tunes." Tunes that are worth knowing but that also open the door to learning many other tunes because so many other tunes share characteristics with these. For example, "ATTYA" teaches you the cycle, in "A-Train" the ii-chord is a dominant, and so on.

This makes a lot more sense than labeling them "beginner tunes."

[christianm77]

This makes a lot more sense than labeling them "beginner tunes."

Did Bruce define them as such, or was it the OP?

[Birdsnake]

Bruce goes over his updated list of "Mother tunes" in episode 99v and explains what's important about each tune while playing examples on guitar.

Guitarwank - Episode 99V April 30th, 2018 — GuitarWank

[MarkRhodes]

Bruce goes over his updated list of "Mother tunes" in episode 99v and explains what's important about each tune while playing examples on guitar.

Guitarwank - Episode 99V April 30th, 2018 — GuitarWank

Line of the Podcast.

Host: Now, I don't play jazz for a living.
Bruce: Nobody does.

[Birdsnake]

He can't resist a punchline lol.. Bruce's jokes are half the fun of gw

[MarkRhodes]

I'm thinking this is the list from the most recent podcast on the subject.
Let me know if I've got anything wrong. (Other than the sequence.)

Summertime
Ain't Misbehavin' (OR It Could Happen To You)
Just Friends
ATTYA
TWNBAY
Green Dolphin Street
Honeysuckle Rose
Autumn Leaves
Take the A Train
Stella By Starlight

[sully75]

I'm thinking this is the list from the most recent podcast on the subject.
Let me know if I've got anything wrong. (Other than the sequence.)

Summertime
Ain't Misbehavin' (OR It Could Happen To You)
Just Friends
ATTYA
TWNBAY
Green Dolphin Street
Honeysuckle Rose
Autumn Leaves
Take the A Train
Stella By Starlight

Yeah I didn't remember Satin Doll being on the list but I'll add it.

[Jack E Blue]

Can anyone explain what Forman means by "triadic shift" in Green Dolphin Street? I've searched various threads and can't find an explanation.

[sully75]

Not sure, is it the way the one chord goes from major to minor?