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Just a thought - never set a goal that’s outside of your control.
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03-22-2024 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Zlobert98
yes you can learn to be a ‘jazz guitar’ player at any age
whether or not you’re ‘great’ or not
is a subjective judgement and is totally in the ear of the listener
you really can’t do anything about
that , so don’t waste your time on
chasing that phantom ….
you do this stuff (music) because you love it enough to put in the hours
its the same process as doing anything you love
go for it
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Originally Posted by Paulie2
If he just wants random gigs here and there, sure, it's entirely possible. But he said "great". It sounds romantic but getting there isn't. I gave my best advice for a career in music, making actual money. It' isn't likely to be playing jazz guitar. If that's your calling, so be it. Go all out. Find a niche and be uncompromising about your artistic vision. The jack of all trades makes more initially but is capped at that level eternally. You need good fortune just to find good personnel for a group unless you like taking orders from someone else.
A lot of guys supplement gig income with lessons. I've had one or two people ask. I could use the money but I will only give lessons to someone who asks and I tell to go away 3x and they still come back. Then after that they will need to bring me whiskey and help me haul, stack, and split firewood for a while so we don't freeze during their winter lessons. No one has taken me up on any of that so far. If you can't haul wood for a few weeks without turning into a whiny bitch you probably won't last 25 or 30 years in the business getting great. What OP fails to realize is once you've gone a certain length of time, there is no option of turning back because the stink of musician emanates off you at every normal job interview and you are left alone to your "greatness" to earn you eating $$$$$.
Here:
1. Your grandfather passes away and his funeral is this week. You are offered a really tough to get gig you've been hammering away at for years and it's the same day as grandpa's funeral. What do you do?
2. You make detailed summer plans with your girlfriend or wife and the above happens, maybe even a residency. What do you do?
3. You get offered a hard to get gig but all your regular trustworthy guys are booked. What do you do?
The answer is "take the gig" to all of the above. Do you like that?
Everything is secondary to doing something "great" and lemme tell you, it's a problem most people aren't prepared for. It actually implies you are a selfish asshole with your time. I don't play jazz and I ain't even great and I am that already. I have hired many guys who wanted to do "jazz" to play what I am playing so there is that. So if you still wanna go for it, welcome to the club. How are your blues chops?
Whoever suggested going to a jazz program is probably OP's best bet if he's actually serious but a truly motivated individual would bypass school and get working at home and in private lessons being time better spent than just earning credits in school not related to jazz. He's 26 so he can still fit in with the kids though so I guess there is that.
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DawgBone is right again about taking those gigs, but left out the part that your grandpas funeral is on a Tuesday and the gig is 3 hours away and pays $300 for the entire band. Then you show up and nobody is there and the owner is pissed that you didn't promote it better.
These are the decisions you'll be making. It can be fun, but it can also be devastating.
I'm friends with a few professionals, and hearing their stories... I'm glad to have my day job.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller;[URL="tel:1325040"
a variation on Stoicism ?
there is a great deal of wisdom
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
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I don't know if there's anything about brain development that makes it easier to start younger, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is.
But, even if there is some difference, I don't think it would prevent somebody from doing it.
There are other issues. The chops part isn't so difficult. Lots of teens have chops. Learning to be a so-called "well rounded jazz musician" takes a lot more than that, though.
One thing that really matters is the state of your ears. It really helps to have what musicians call "big ears". There's some inborn talent and early exposure relevant to that, I think, but I can't quantify it.
But, if, somehow, you can already hear the details, that saves a lot of time.
And, then, there are all the other skills a "beast" has. How quickly can you get familiar with hundreds of tunes? Learn to read? Build combo-playing skills? etc etc.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
I know I'm harsh. It was intentional. But I told the OP the exact same thing I told my kid, who would still play a passable tenor sax if he hadn't taken my advice to find a different career path. I was nicer to the OP about it though. After he saw some of the fun and games he didn't need much of a talk from me, but I still wish he had picked up pedal steel. Unfortunately I am an all or nothing personality so it's go all the way or don't go at all. I would be impressed if the OP says "screw that guy" and it lights a fire under him. But it needs to be a long lasting and hot fire. Forget chops, the business will sort out the pretenders all on it's own with massive frustration and setbacks. So I thought an up front taste would be beneficial. You need to be tough, almost obstinate, cold, robotic, and occasionally mean, to carry out your vision. If it's a calling then you don't have a choice anyways, so disregard the ramblings of someone who in his own way tried to touch some greatness. Maybe someday. Next month maybe. Next year. Five years. When I am 55 I will be great!!!! It's always somehow just out of my reach. I can sometimes just touch it with the tip of a finger or two or maybe a couple measures, maybe even a song or two, but I can't ever hold on to it, it's so fleeting!
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The OP never said he wanted to be a full-time professional jazz guitarist. Maybe the true shortcoming among some of you is reading comprehension. Others have offered relevant, responsive, informative and insightful information.
And maybe we’re self-aggrandizing a bit about how much of a sacrifice and struggle it is to accomplish some degree of proficiency.
I would guess that if many of the great figures in jazz history thought of their development as such a horribly burdensome feat, they would be unknown today.
It’s a guitar. It’s twelve notes. Let’s not pretend we’re greater or more important than we are.
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Originally Posted by Fusionshred
We're all guessing at what OP meant by "great jazz guitarist" and "beast of a jazz player." That sounds pretty ambitious and as such, he's getting replies related to full time professional ambitions. The overall reply is "maybe, it's going to be hard, and the playing chops are the easy part."
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I agree with Mr. Beaumont, that the key factor may be putting yourself in the midst of the most active and alive jazz culture of musicians performing. In some city. Maybe in the Netherlands, maybe in New York or Chicago.
Go now.
I don’t think of bar bands being great jazzers except perhaps in those places.
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The young brain can definitely soak things up quicker...but there's also the case for the more experienced brain being able to think more abstractly...and some jazz concepts are pretty abstract. Some. Most of the important stuff is far less.
It's probably time for me to tell my story, as I started taking jazz seriously at just a slightly younger age than our OP. If you want the cliff notes, it has an unhappy ending, I'm not great. But that ending was at lest partially avoidable.
We make choices in life. I did not major in music in college, even though it was already something I loved. In college I was in multiple bands, played every weekend, often Friday and Saturday, sometimes more than one gig a day. Subbed in a wedding band that played "light jazz" during cocktail hour occasionally. All I did was hold my guitar and play the occasional chord. I knew I loved jazz but I didn't know a thing about playing it.
So yeah, I did a lot of music. But I wanted to teach visual art...I felt teaching art was something I'd be better at. And I do think I made the right choice.
And so I settled in to a career that gave me time off. I had a girlfriend (now wife) a dog and a house. I wanted to play jazz, but I didn't know anybody else who played jazz, and I lived far enough out of the area of the city where any jazz was happening that making the effort to get there was beyond what I wanted to most of the time. Chicago is big, and though I'm only 10 miles from downtown, that can be a 2 hour trek on public transportation (driving and paying for parking is NOT a choice if you want to keep your household budget)
It was a choice. At the time I could have been going out 5 nights a week and playing jams, I instead worked on my solo guitar chops. I arranged a ton of tunes. I played solo gigs at restaurants and wine bars and wedding cocktail hours. It taught me a lot, but it didn't teach me how to play jazz with others.
That came later...truly, long after I should have gotten myself out there. I was able to fall in with a group, mostly playing Django's music, which wasn't my first love, but hey, it was jazz, and I was playing it. This time also led to more gigs in different styles too, actually. Played a lot of classic country during this period...
And then I had kids. There were no late night jams anymore, just late night feedings and diaper changes. That was a spell of a few years.
My kids are a little older now, I do a lot of coaching, I still have my summers off, I practice every day, more when I'm not working. I'm still not great, but I also am still getting better. I sometimes consider "getting back out there." But life usually gets in the way.
So moral of the story?
You don't have to turn out like me. But there are some decisions you need to make...things that can either keep your goal within your control or put it out of your control. I chose the latter.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 03-22-2024 at 01:56 PM.
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Originally Posted by Fusionshred
The OP said great, I have good reading comprehension. Great will require huge sacrifices if he wants people to say "he's a great jazz guitarist" about him. It will consume the larger share of the rest of his days. Greatness is a lifetime endeavor not something you get from four or five years practicing in a cell without bars. That's maybe half of it, a good start.
It's twelve notes. Maybe I had to try harder than others because I have less natural talent. OP lesson number one: desire trumps talent. It's easy for everyone else maybe, not me. Jazz is easy. Blues is easy. Must be nice, but those are the first words from someone's lips that will make their gig with me their last. No respect. So easy for you you can find another gig! Boots, hat, belt, western shirt, and telecaster!!!
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Honestly except that the market is saturated with guitarists. Sure there are lots of guitarists but not a lot who are serious enough to be gigging, even casually.
And guitar is easy to book because it’s small and unassuming and can play solo or duo. I walked into my favorite Indian restaurant to get takeout last night and the guy was like … “it’s been slow tell your friends.” And I was like …. I could fit a bass player in that corner.
But otherwise yeah …
… I have a kid and I teach a lot and I find time to practice too. To be fair I also did the music school thing and lived in good music places for a while. So that’s a jump start. But if the issue is time, it’s really a matter of interest a lot of the time. How to use that time? A good teacher is a good way to go. Or transcribing.
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^ Real talk right there
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Here’s another point. Something I think about from my own personal experience.
You do need the chops to cover the gig but honestly that’s not always that much. After that, the person who gets the gig is ……..
1. who is the best hang?
2. who is the best fit for the music?
3. who is the best player?
So if you’re working on yourself and can play enough tunes to be useful, then being the best player in the room is only a tie breaker after other more important stuff is taken into account.
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Seems like a good time to bring this up.
Wes Montgomery found time to practice with 8 kids and his wife sleeping in the room. AND, he never made enough to quit his day job as a welder. Tal Farlow never quit his day job as a sign painter.
Great does not mean financially successful.
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Only skimmed this thread but my advice is:
Move to NYC, as quickly as you can. Since you’re 26 now is the time.
Get a source of funds to pay rent.
Get a teacher with a real pedigree, someone who has played with all the greats. Dont study with some random 34 year old YouTuber with a music degree (no offense).
Learn as many standards as you can and commit the to memory for real. Fuck the real book.
Go to jam sessions as often as you can.
Form a network and meet players at your level looking to gig. NY is competitive for the best gigs but there is a ton of work in smaller venues.
Enroll in community music schools if needed.
Be intelligent about how you practice. I won’t be prescriptive here but get a real teacher and ignore YouTube.
You can start to kick ass in a few years. Remember that musicality is much more important than chops.
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Originally Posted by Fusionshred
In any case best of luck.
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Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
Living in New York is hard and ridiculously expensive. I absolutely loved it, but I worked full time the whole time I was there in addition to gigging. I don't live in New York anymore and I teach full time and have way way more time to practice in spite of the addition of a toddler into the equation.
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I love that this thread is like “being a jazz musician is hard!” And also offering “move to New York” as advice.
Being a jazz musician is easier than like … I don’t know … getting to your dentist on an afternoon F train.
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Telling people to move to New York is romanticism for the 1950's. You can play jazz in any city, they all have breweries, vineyards, and upscale bars. Going to New York if you can't blow through changes at a local jazz jam, is a baaaaaad idea.
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