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02-13-2020, 10:51 AM #1joelf Guest
I'm starting this b/c I myself have more to learn than teach. Rhythm is essential---it's primary in any African-derived popular musics. I would venture the perhaps bold statement that we North Americans have a pretty mono-rhythmic culture, for sociological rather than musical reasons: the slave masters took the drums away from the slaves here and didn't in the Caribbean.
I'm interested in getting a grip on the more complex polyrhythms used daily in African and Caribbean rites---simpler ones, too. Santeria chants and their rhythmic underpinnings; true samba; modern African forms and traditional ones. Everything about clave'. My knowledge is embarrassingly limited.
And far be it to leave out what we have achieved here in jazz and other popular forms. Kansas City, where 4/4 got 'smoothed out'; the wonders of Motown and TSOP; the blues---etc. etc.
I hope this thread spurs discussion on who to listen to and learn from. Comments, videos, examples, the whole nine.
Thank yiz in advance...
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02-13-2020 10:51 AM
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given this excellent introduction and his remarks on Afro-Cuban rhythms, claves..., I hope not to shock anyone by copying here a message from the topic COMPING
RHYTHMIC & POLYRHYTHMIC FREEDOM
independence thumb and fingers right hand for guitar comping and solo
we replace the different sounds of percussion by bass and chords or bass chords melody
I recall that changing instruments is advised by Kenny Werner, at the beginning of Effortless Mastery. Personally, my biggest weakness was the rhythm, and the ability to hear several at once, so the other musicians in the band. So I worked this kind of stuff, adapting them from percussions to the guitar
a few pages of my notebooks, which I mentioned earlier
2 first from
we notice that we find at the bottom line bass of samba, bossa-nova, claves ...
from drums rudiments. R and L can represent bass and alternating chords, or 2 im fingers, ia, ma, etc. excellent for speed work. The redoubled finger can then give the other in between, like the sticks of a drummer
polyrhythms
some dance rhythms adapted for djembé or african drums
here as in the previous pages we can mark the "." or not, the rhythm does not change, but the flow is different. The djembe virtuosos uses ghost notes to simulate multiple simultaneous instruments
personal (permutations concept...)
here the drums rudiments concern Caribbean & Afro-Cuban rhythms. They can be used with bass and chords, or to work independence in the alternation of 2 fingers, or on two notes, like drums rudiments above
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02-13-2020, 11:28 AM #3joelf Guest
Wow! Now that's food for thought.
I wasn't thinking books so much as 'hands-on', though. But anything helpful...
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Where’s mr bonritmos got to lately? He’s got an interesting take on jazz via Ketu cantomble rhythms from Brazil; he’s a jazz drummer based out there.
god dammit I need to remember to practice this stuff!
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check out cuban born pianist david virelles..he records for ecm...very afro-cubano rhythm oriented
his lp mboko is a good listen
cheers
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Originally Posted by joelf
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Originally Posted by djg
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Imagine, a really good musician posting with a proven track record of playing with top people kindly offering pearls of wisdom to forum and then getting questioned on its validity by people who have yet to post one note of their playing.... ah the internet.
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02-13-2020, 09:20 PM #9joelf GuestOriginally Posted by djg
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02-13-2020, 09:59 PM #10joelf Guest
I wanna introduce folks to this guy. (Probably some here know him already). He's an encyclopedia and a marvel. Aside from the Brasil-Afrocuban stuff---and that's a lot of stuff, Vanderlei is one of the most original and unique jazz drummers I've heard. He was in my band some time ago and we were going over a tune by bassist-composer Sean Smith. He started playing a rhythm I'd never heard---a march-like thing. I stopped everything and had to know. I never wrote it down, dunce that I am. We spoke recently and he sort of remember and told me again what he thought it was---and guess who didn't write it down again?
Anyway, if you don't know Vanderlei, now you will:
Vanderlei Pereira
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there are also Les cahiers du rythme of pianist Daniel Goyone (Chick Corea, Trilok Gurtu...)
his pedagogy aims to integrate rhythms into the body and head, with voice, flapping of hands and feet and snapping fingers
it's pure rhythm, applicable to all instruments
Vol. 1: The Basics
Vol. 2: Binary, ternary and claves
Vol. 3: Odd Rhythms - Tihais (cadential rhythmic formulas)
here are some pages found online
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you wanna talk about santeria rhythms..(which is nothin to be played with)...comin' from nyc back in the day...the salsa clubs of nyc boroughs queens brooklyn and bronx..but esp the former...corona..where louie A lived his endgame!!..heavy days..i remember seein goats heads on the street corners!! botanicas on every other block...that's some real magick goin on!!!..
those salsa bands were wicked..eddie palmieri..fania records..celia cruz....the bass player always had ampeg baby bass foam body eub!!
talk about hangin tough
cheers
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nor is it a question of confusing the "macro" rhythm, the swing or the groove, with "micro" rhythm, the internal rhythmic richness to the general pulsation, the one that makes you dance
one of the most difficult things in solo guitar is to keep the groove despite the melodic and harmonic variations. This is one of the most disappointing tricks in guitar solos ("chords melodies"...), and in truth very few guitarists succeed, that's probably why despite their technical exploits, they're quickly boring
It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing, Duke Ellington
even the bebop gets danced
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Originally Posted by joelf
this is the kind to practice two fingers, or thumb (pick) and finger bass and chords, and it's only the first page!
this is how we integrate the rhythm physically, physiologically, while making enormous progress in independence, by ear and guitar technique
this is used to disconnecting the number of fingers from the number of notes per beat, playing 3 fingers what is binary (8th notes, 16ths notes), 2 or 4 fingers which is ternary, 5, 7... triplets, quintuplets, 2, 3, 4, 5 notes for sextuplet moving the silence(s).... Jazz in particular is never made of regular rhythmic breathless flow. That's why I'm not in favour of the uninterrupted eight-notes exercises found in Joe Pass's methods or other. What you work, you will play, and it is the source of mechanical playing, ticking, ticking, ticking, systematic up-down of the pick or two fingers alternating right hand ... In classical guitar, it is very noticeable on the ternary tremolos three fingers poorly controlled, unbearable takatak takatak takatak!
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What a great thread.
Don't want to divert it but anyone have suggestions of guitarists--Cuban or otherwise--who are immersed in these rhythms? Longtime fan of Arsenio, and Cuban tres, and I love that stuff that Marc Ribot did with his Prosthestic group, but I'm not too familiar with contemporary jazz guitarists who work mainly in the clave.
Tom
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02-15-2020, 11:45 AM #16joelf GuestOriginally Posted by tfaux
Years ago---I mean years ago, in the '70s, a pianist I have lost all contact with since those days suggested I get together with a guitar player--we'd dig each other. I passed, think I was up all night or something. Turned out to be a guy named Marc Ribot.
I've heard he hasn't done too badly for himself (;
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02-15-2020, 11:54 AM #17joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Patlotch
It's not the approach, necessarily, but what one does with it. And I'm no lover of empty virtuosity---especially 'tricks'. It's more your statement about 'chord melodies' I disagree with. Any really good player using the technique in soloing will have studied the rhythm masters: Freddie Green to countless pop, R&B, Hispanic and African people. They know how to keep the feeling or reality of a bass line underneath; directly state or infer the pulse, the groove. If some guys don't do that, shame on them. But please don't paint everyone with the same brush. You're better than that...
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02-15-2020, 12:36 PM #18joelf GuestOriginally Posted by Patlotch
Let's keep it on the sharing knowledge plane it's been on up til now. Please?
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Originally Posted by joelf
it is not a question of "win" or ego, but to assume his words
but you prefer to move to another register, as I understand you ...
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02-15-2020, 01:27 PM #20joelf Guest
This whole page---wow!:
african polyrhythms - YouTube
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02-15-2020, 02:14 PM #21joelf Guest
This guy humanizes it. This is basic, understandable, wonderful:
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something much more 'intellectual' György Ligeti, Source Daniel Goyone
same with Bach rythmicien
Among the countless laurel wreaths he is braided, Jean Sébastien Bach is rarely awarded that of a rhythmian. His rhythmic art, although perfectly accomplished, is closely subject to the art of counterpoint and the metrics he uses (2, 3 or 4 times, binary or ternary) are common.
One aspect, however, is worth noting: J.S. Bach repeatedly uses metrics rated at 3/4, but played in tempi so slow that they are perceived as 6-stroke measures.
These are among Bach's works, extremely beautiful and touching compositions, with extraordinary melodies.
The three-stroke swing, combined with a very slow tempo, gives a characteristic feeling of weightlessness and time dilation. This slowness does not correspond to the generally accepted notion for rhythmic music, but there is a specific rhythmic characteristic. To perceive the interest you have to know how to put yourself in unison with this very slow pulse.
In the symbolism of this period, the number 3, associated with the symbol of the circle, is a symbol of celestial perfection as opposed to the binary, which is associated with the earth's imperfection. This symbolism is found in the current notation: The c symbol (for a measure of 4 c barred (for a measure at 2 times) symbolize the imperfection of a broken circle.
Here are 4 particularly interesting examples [...]
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02-15-2020, 05:32 PM #23joelf Guest
Thanks for that, really.
Not trying to control this in any way, however, myself, I want to stay with the Afro-Carribbean tip and not so much the European classical. Only for the purposes of this thread.
This has absolutely nothing to do with you or your very welcome input: Years ago I had a great teacher, a pianist who shaped my thinking about many things in music and life. I think of him almost every day. But he was human, and somewhat flawed like all us humans. He would never cop to it but he was prejudiced. He might have a person of color over for dinner or as a student and treat him peachy keen, but the prejudices surfaced in discussions that could get heated, then turn ugly with him making unconscionably mean accusations and showing thinking that reflected his upbringing by an uneducated longshoreman. My teacher was educated, and should have known better. But the education was part of the problem: the academy shaped his thinking as much as his forbears and early environment (born in 1937).
I'll never forget one discussion that went south like that, and ended in insults---which he would turn to when he had no convincing evidence to support his premise. I had broached this very thing: African-derived polyrhythms. I had heard these conga drummers play on the beach and what they did---dancing as they 'conversed'---blew me away. So that was on my mind and I was excited to tell him about it. He couldn't see it, and said things like 'Are you gonna compare that to Bach?', etc. It ended with him shaking head and fist at me for being an idiot he couldn't take seriously. I loved the guy, still do, but no way could I apologize for his bald racism and incomplete schooling.
Of course I want to learn and apply what great men like those you speak of did. They're way ahead of me. My feeling is that classical people are way ahead of some jazzers and some Afro-Caribbean musicians----harmonically. Maybe 50 to 100 years ahead. The European contribution to rhythm is as valid as a hat and coat in the winter. The African outlook and feeling is way different, and it is that gap in my knowledge that I want to fill.
It just interests me more at this juncture, that's all...Last edited by joelf; 02-15-2020 at 09:18 PM.
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And then you get bop where the linear ideas of Bach (esp minor key) are taken and made more sophisticated by the use of African Diaspora rhythm :-)
like the first few bars of the Dm 2 part inventions is like really square bop. Look at the bridge melody of Night in Tunisia to see how the boppers refined and developed that basic material.
(now of course before I get flamed by Jonah, Bach has its own sophistication. Jazz musicians were not involved in fugal technique or extended compositional structures..: Well not much. But I enjoy the reframe.
all musical evolution is a both a development of some aspects of the prior art and simplification of others. Look at Mozart after Bach... why did people ever buy into the idea of historical progress in music? It’s asinine.)
Anyway, to an uncultured ear, subtlety, structure and nuance are always missed. Of course Western Classical musicians get upset if you imply they are uncultured to some extent. Educationally disadvantaged in a lot of areas (aren’t we all?) But they are becoming more open. Partly it’s history and cultural hegemony, which keeps them in their box, but it’s also fear, of weakness, of ridicule...
(I must talk about the fascinating politics of my music education course. So many cultural assumptions. Tutors who’ve all come up the same route.
Really nice people, sure, but it’s interesting what goes on deeper. They’ll pay lip service to Critical Pedagogy, make out they are hip and open, but they really don’t like it when you question them.
They have academic books about people like us you know that portray us in some sort of bucolic realm of ear learning and informal learning that hasn’t existed for 50 years if it ever did.
Actual real jazz musicians don’t write academic texts on the whole. Thank god for Paul Berliner. I mean classical music world is all about the division of labour; performer, educator, composer. These distinctions are meaningless in jazz.
It’s so insidious the way people get conditioned to think.
but they are trying so hard, bless them.)
to me it’s great to realise that there are limitations of my hearing. An opportunity to learn. I get to hear more and more all the time. I remember the first day I really started to hear quarter tones in Middle Eastern music, it was like a new door had opened.
nowhere else is that truer than in jazz. To learn to be better musician is to learn to hear more, isn’t it?Last edited by christianm77; 02-15-2020 at 06:29 PM.
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You know if I ever do a phd I’d love to do it on the contradictions of that institution haha.
Elias Prinz -- young talent from Munich
Yesterday, 10:24 PM in The Players