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Originally Posted by xavierbarcelo
The same goes for festivals. No doubt the organisers wanted more income because these things are expensive to run. I suspect moaning about trade is simply par for the course at commercially driven events. As you say, the business side of it. But that's what business is.
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02-15-2020 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Patlotch
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Jazz tunes too, by the way. I forgot :-)
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As a youngster I loved walking into the house and hearing the luscious tone of Wes’ guitar from that album. I was shocked, years later, to learn that my parents and I had poor taste.
AKA
Originally Posted by Patlotch
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Really great essay by Jimmy Raney:
PREPARED GUITAR: Things Downbeat Never Taught Me by Jimmy Raney
Chicago turned out OK. There were a lot of talented young musicians, and they all played bebop. They didn't get paid for it though. Nobody liked bebop. Not the jazz fans, not the older musicians, not even the Downbeat writers. We mostly played for free in a B-Girl joint on South State Street called the "Say When." They didn't like bebop either, but they let us play there to make the place look like a real club, instead of a clip-joint that rolled drunks who were looking for some action. They got action alright, but not the kind that they had hoped for. They ended up in the alley with a sore head and no money. The bartenders were all ex-prizefighters - they had to be.
I played and recorded with Stan Getz in 1950,'51, and '52. Then I did a one-and-a-half year stint with the Red Norvo Trio. After that I got married and settled down in New York City. I found out soon enough that you can't make a living playing jazz in one city. Not even New York City. So I started doing other things in order to get by.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by xavierbarcelo
Similar to jazz; ‘My Favorite Things’ is a Julie Andrews song from ‘The Sound of Music’ and is considered a Coltrane classic but Wes’s ‘A Day in the Life’ is a sell-out.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
That said, I wonder if anyone really learned to swing by studying triplet quarter and eight notes, or are those just an attempt to capture the swing everyone was playing in notation?
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Originally Posted by Betz
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I have worked with a lot of bright people in a long engineering career. Overall, in spite of credentials and impressive analytical wherewithal, their taste in music seemed to track that of the rest of the populace. Even though, as a group, there was a higher concentration of musicians, jazz just wasn't a topic. Not that I kept objective metrics. Just an impression. But I always knew who the jazz players were.
<ramble on>
Maybe jazz got hemmed in by definition. Should have included everything creative and bit out of the box. Bela Fleck, Michael Hedges. Would current Metheny offerings be called jazz without his history?
Anyway.. doesn't matter. Intellectual doesn't matter. A 2 second media focus doesn't matter. Good is good in general. And boring is boring. In general.
Overthinking makes me think of this joke:
Pessimist: Glass half empty
Optimist: Glass half full
Engineer: Your glass is too big
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Couldn't resist Joe Hill - with 11 bars.
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Do jazz players in general put on show? The public like to see some kind of show, a visual aspect or at least interaction with the audience.
Do jazz players in general aspire to musical accessibility? We can decry the public's lack of understanding of modern jazz, but you have to give people something they can relate to - a beat, a hummable melody. If you do that, people are ther. I saw Snarky Puppy couple of months ago. The kids loved it, I was one of the oldest people in the audience and that doesn't happen often w jazz related music. Diane Krall and Norah Jones had remarkable success playing melodies people wanted to hum. The audience is there, but you can't expect them to do all the reaching out.
Is there a clique mentality in at least part of jazz culture? Do members of the jazz comunity set up hurdles or barriers or do they invite the uninitiated in? How often have you read or heard members of our community deride audiences or members of the public for not connecting with some jazz artist? How often do you see or hear jazz fans/writers/artists put down genres that the general public are into. Ask yourself - if you weren't a member of this subculture, would you feel invited in?
But of couse it's perfectly ok to pursue art for arts' sake. Just as it's perfectly all right to write highly advanced poetry. But just as the poet accept that it's not a fault of the audience if they would rather read the Great American Novel du jour
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Once you start giving college degrees in a genre of music, you are basically telling the general public they are too stupid to engage in it. Can I get a PhD in R&B....? I'm betting Berklee would be willing to take my money...
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Originally Posted by Average Joe
Don't misunderstand this, I'm not trying to produce a clique or say the mass are too stupid to appreciate it. I'd say it's up to them. The fact is jazz is out there now - we on this thread are involved in it - so it's not as though it's hidden or inaccessible.
Not everyone likes classical music, or opera, or ballet, or modern art, or art-house films, etc etc. No one's trying to 'make them popular', it would destroy their very point. And that point has never been to exclude certain types of people. The idea's absurd. Those who like those things will gravitate towards them. And those who don't, won't.
So you see the point here. Why does this idea of making jazz popular - whatever that actually means - exist at all? If it's about money then too bad. Hire Beyonce or Justin Bieber if you want a big party!
As to whether jazz circles can be cliquey, yes they can, I've experienced it. It's a shame because there's no need, jazz won't attract those who don't like it so why bother? It's very snobby and only drives people away. What you don't want is people coming for the music and not coming back because of the snotty atmosphere.
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Yeah, that's spot on ragman. If jazz doesn't just "grab you" right away (like I'm guessing it did for some of us) it's going to take a little effort to appreciate what's going on in jazz. Some folks are not going to put forth that effort. It doesn't make them dumb or anything, not everybody gets into music the same way.
I've always had a curious ear...so if I hear something that I find interesting, I'm apt to want to want to know more about it, even if I didn't necessarily "like it" right from the start...sometimes learning a little more about it is enough to develop an appreciation, which can eventually lead to an affinity.
I'm not like that with all artforms...give me a book and if I'm not into it after the first chapter or two, I'm on to something else.
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books
But, you know, you've got to have a certain mindset to want to investigate something that sounds interesting. I guess some do, some don't - whether it's jazz or physics.
But each to their own, we can't all be the same.
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I dunno. I think, if you want people to participate, you have to give them a way in. Take an example: I've never met a rock or pop fan who couldn't appreciate Work Song, The Sidewinder, the entirety of KOB. Are those lesser forms of jazz for being accessible? I'm not saying everything should be like that obviously, but a dwindling community have to give people on the outside a way to join, and that sometimes means being accessible. Some of the time. Joining a community also requires something of those who join - I'm sure I'm not the only one in this thread who didn't understand everything jazz related the first time I was subjected to it. That's part of the journey. But getting people in the door in the first place isn't imho covered by saying "we're over here in the corener, it's up to you". We also have to reach out.
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The end of raising the popularity of Jazz is only as far away as the means of engaging in...
"...the real betrayal of some jazzmen making music that pleases..." Patlotch
with varying commercial success based on how much of the population one aims to please.
The risk to Jazz would be changing it into something, possibly as horrible as popular music.
Remember hopped up Disco tempo Classical music over drum kit and electric bass guitar?
Rather than global popularity, one may seek out local popularity, or cultivate and develop it.
Local, in this sense, may mean a single venue or a part of town where Jazz listeners spend.
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"...the real betrayal of some jazzmen making music that pleases..." Patlotch
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Originally Posted by Average Joe
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When people seek to 'popularize' classical music, cubism, or fine quilting they are not seeking to diminish it. Nor do they have any desire to wash out the content to make it more accessible. They usually just want to expose more people to the topic in play while also pointing out why it's interesting and good. Nobody here had school field trips?
Of course.. jazzers have always been defensive. They want to reserve the definition in a narrow band. They want exclusivity. To be the arcane practitioners. They want to ensure respect for their difficult art. Bah.
Careful with hubris. There are many kinds of music that have fallen to distant obscurity once they became irrelevant. And jazz is pretty much irrelevant in any public art sense. We may be here talking about it now but 80% or more of us are old men. And it may very well die with us.
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One of the principal reasons for the Cootie Harris Jazz Jams (sponsored by the Meadville, Pa. Arts Council) in which I participated was to provide young musicians of all ages the opportunity hear live jazz and to play live jazz with living jazz players. I used to take my grandson there, and every time I picked him up I'd ask him if he brought his sticks. It took a while, but after a few visits, he was up there sitting in with piano, upright bass, and a full horn section, jamming away. The same scenario applied with other youngsters on many instruments - vibes, flute, what have you. If jazz is to survive and thrive, young people need to be exposed to opportunities to play. High school Jazz Bands are a start, but the gutting of Arts/Music programs in the US is a big step backwards. We as individuals need to take whatever opportunities arise to promote jazz music and live jazz playing whenever and wherever we can.
Last edited by citizenk74; 02-19-2020 at 10:12 PM. Reason: spellin'
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Let's not be disingenuous. The phrase 'popularise' wouldn't apply to schoolkids. In fact, I was going to suggest myself that musical education in schools should include jazz. I was talking about grown-ups.
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What's wrong with this? Looks popular enough to me.
Cheltenham Jazz Festival
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Originally Posted by christianm77
I love country music!!
Henriksen Blu 6 w/ gig bag
Today, 03:29 PM in For Sale