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I suppose its just about possible Jansch, Renbourn and co may have heard Kind of Blue and liked it a bit
Pretty much a perfect rendition of a real trad English folk song
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05-20-2020 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by joelf
You know Carthy still performs... there’s a local pub I often play at where he and other masters such as Martin Simpson play... so crap at getting out to things. Will try and change that after lockdown.
in the hands of Dylan that repetition becomes hypnotic...
No I agree, with jazz fusions with anything like this- classical as well - I find the improvisation has to be very reigned in and sparing. A little jazz goes a long way.
Anyway one of the most successful fusions of recent years is Quercus with June Tabor, Iain Ballamy and Huw Warren on ECM. Anyone unaware of this album - it will wreck you.
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Originally Posted by sgcim
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05-20-2020, 09:39 PM #29joelf Guest
Christian: Did you know Frank Griffith any of the 20+ years he was in London? (He's in Liverpool now). An old mate of mine, going back to the early '80s. We're still very much in touch.
Sorry, everyone, to go off-topic for a sec...
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05-20-2020, 09:42 PM #30joelf Guest
'Quercus with June Tabor, Iain Ballamy and Huw Warren'...
So much music I don't know.
Ya need 2 lifetimes---at least...
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god..you all have me remembering my early roots...seeing Dylan on a live TV interview show..hearing his name on radio music stations the DJ's would play peter paul & mary and would credit Bob Dylan as the song writer..having no idea who Dylan was..I pictured a 40+yr old guy who played piano..and wrote songs..like the tin pan alley guys did..
so the Les Crane show..and Les says...ok..Bobby...and my life changed and i could not do anything about it..
out comes this young guy looked to be 20 at most...with a guitar and a harmonica around his neck..with hair that was windblown at best..and he starts singing..
and now he sounds 30 yrs older with a twang somewhere in his craggy sounding voice..not singing but not talking...and the song made no sense at all
what the hell was he singing about..."..Its alright ma..I'm only dying.." the guitar playing was ok I thought..but when he played the Honer blues harp held with the metal holder that was not melodic but outlined the song ...help...
the combination of "looks young/sounds old/guitar and harmonica going in different directions..
and then Les interviews him...and Bob is just so casual-cool ..he waves to friends in the live audience..one being Odetta..a popular folk singer at the time..and Les ask him questions about
Allen Ginsberg being a friend of his and Allen smoking pot..and Dylan says "..yeah?..no.. I didnt know that.." with such a innocent face..."who..me??"
then he played another song...and i felt like aliens had abducted me ...."you must leave now..take what you need you think will last.."
by the time he finished Baby Blue..I knew my parents would never understand what happened to me .. I know i sure didnt..Last edited by wolflen; 05-21-2020 at 12:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Last edited by PMB; 05-21-2020 at 06:09 PM.
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Davy Graham was another one who did some jazz tunes.
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Originally Posted by PMB
Great pub anyway.... run as a cooperative.
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Lots of modal folk music predates modal jazz, so I think the folkies looked to the roots of their own genre, it's usually part of the tradition, right? Early folk music of most ethnicities is very modal. Can you get more modal than bagpipes? The 60s was already the folk revival vs traditional folk music.
This is a traditional arrangement of a tune from at least the early 40s.
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Originally Posted by PMB
Well certainly when I was getting into Machaut, the Lady and the Unicorn piqued my interest because I already knew of Renbourn. He was influenced by David Munrow, which was the first performances of that music I heard. Sad I never got to meet him.
Munrow had a real vibey, almost jazz approach to that music. Of course, scholarship has moved on (inevitably) but those recordings still work as music. Big influence on me. I definitely think that was an influence on Robert Sadin's Machaut project years later (featuring Lionel Loueke, Brad Mehldau and others... Sadin also produced Wayne Shorter's Alegria...)
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Things that pop into my head outside jazz though include Bulgarian choir singing.
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Fantastic recording btw, love that stuff.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
This is modal harmony too. Banjo is open tuning and mandolins are in 5ths, that almost gives you default modal chord voicings.
Banjos and mandolins not so common in the music I'm discussing specifically (1960s folk-baroque), and while banjo is used in Irish music, it's a different instrument - the tenor banjo. Again the retuning of the guitar encourages modal voicings, but the most popular tuning (DADGAD) was popularised among by a man who wrote a tune called 'Tristano' - so, yeah. Hard to disentangle.
When I listen to something like this (and for overring type techniques on banjo, or any stringed instrument), the main reference point I hear is the harp.
Maybe that's what Carthy had in mind when he came up with the Scarborough Fair arrangement? It seems more likely, I'm not sure if he was terribly interested in jazz.
But McManus plays 'Goodbye Pork Pie Hat' so... yeah.
So, my suspicion is this move towards modal sounds in all areas of music in the 60s was ... eclectic convergence... interest in folk music, Indian music and jazz moving to a more vamp based approach (rock musicians often talk about Coltrane) all influenced it...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Only someone my age or older can understand what it meant to hear how very important the band Traffic was, as it happened. These guys were a gateway band to modern jazz for many listeners and musicians. It was an organic blend of folk, rock and modal jazz. I don't know if younger cats can look back and realize how important they were.
Don't skip the outro jam...
title track
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
there was a "one hit wonder" band called "its a beautiful day" did a tune called White Bird.. with a very sweet violin solo..that brought flavors of folk/country to many new ears..
some may not realize how "new" electric guitar was in the music of the 60's ..I mean it became THE VOICE unto itself...
remember the tune Sombody to Love by the Airplane and Jormas solo at the end of the tune was considered "radical" at that time..
1967...Monterey Pop..the first "rock festival" and the first time the US got to see Jimi...and the electric guitar world changed and is still changing
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by sgcim
He argues well why he dislikes my favourite songs, and I think in terms of making a case for Aesthetics in musical terms (which is always a stupid idea, from any direction, but can be an interesting thing to engage with) he does it better than most writers on rock. A lot of it is fairly conventional musicology, completely alien to the NME of my youth.
Musicians themselves are disincentivized to have any musical taste whatsoever (it interferes with work) and also have an emphasis on craft and technicality (they sit around gawping at Jacob Collier's voice leading), so there's definitely a space for a discerning critic in my opinion. So long as they don't portray their opinions as objective, which of course no professional critic does. (Although MacDonald does kind of come across as quite modernist)
Also 'the garbage music has become' is a boring and arid perspective. MacDonald is not to blame for the current form of chart pop, some of which I rather like. I don't think he's good enough at production.
And a King Crimson fan should find a LOT of music around today to enjoy... It's wall to wall prog out there...
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
I was a Traffic fanatic when I was a kid, because my older sister had their records, and my little rock band would play stuff like "40,000 Headmen", which had a modal vibe to it. When "John Barleycorn" came out, this tune made it clear what Winwood's roots were. Check out his piano solo towards the end:
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Stevie Winwood on the Moog with John Martyn.
1979 L5 CES - Sweden ~$7k
Yesterday, 03:38 PM in For Sale