Kingstone/Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar

[Boston Joe]

I would always say ‘it’s just names and names aren’t that important’ but I don’t know really.

That's my general attitude. To-may-to, to-mah-to and all that.

There are exceptions. I understand why George Russell coined "ingoing/outgoing tonal gravity" as an alternative to "consonance/dissonance" even though the term is very cumbersome. The problem is, you can get so caught up in your own terminology that no one else can understand you.

And I also think there are some people who do it to disguise the fact that they're just repackaging old concepts.

In Barry's case, I'm sure that these terms pre-date the modal terminology* but, at least for me it's tough to overwrite 35+ years of habit in that regard.


*(I never heard this called the "Berklee" terms until I got on this forum. I don't know if it's just that in this area, it's such the lingua franca, that people don't feel the need to label it as such, or what. I know it's what Berklee teaches, but I wasn't aware they were so closely associated).

[christianm77]

That's my general attitude. To-may-to, to-mah-to and all that.

There are exceptions. I understand why George Russell coined "ingoing/outgoing tonal gravity" as an alternative to "consonance/dissonance" even though the term is very cumbersome. The problem is, you can get so caught up in your own terminology that no one else can understand you.

And I also think there are some people who do it to disguise the fact that they're just repackaging old concepts.

In Barry's case, I'm sure that these terms pre-date the modal terminology but, at least for me it's tough to overwrite 35+ years of habit in that regard.


*(I never heard this called the "Berklee" terms until I got on this forum. I don't know if it's just that in this area, it's such the lingua franca, that people don't feel the need to label it as such, or what. I know it's what Berklee teaches, but I wasn't aware they were so closely associated).

Yeah, Berklee has a pretty tight system of nomenclature, which is more specific than just general CST terms etc - m7b5 not half dim, mixo b9b13 not phrygian dominant, that kind of thing.

I feel that the terminology is the lingua franca for most, it's just that it's not the lingua franca as far as some of the older musicians are concerned. I think there are some historical and personal aspects at play here too with some of the veteran educators and musicians. Lalala I won't get into those :-)

In any case if you do get into BH deeply, I think the other terms will become more and more familiar to you. The only problem as I say is communicating to those who haven't gone down the rabbit hole.

[christianm77]

I never learned the 1/2 step rules for minor. I think it was for saturation and sanity reasons.

Interesting. But - and I say this from my own experience - it doesn't actually matter as much as that sounds, because you are playing on dominant so much?

Thanks for the advice, that's what I thought. I have my own take on it a little bit, but I do want to get as strong a grip as possible on what Barry actually teaches.

[joe2758]

The more I think in BH terms the more I like them. Gets me closer to how my heros thought. It’s also less cerebral (even if it seems more so to those who have been thinking CST for 10, 20, 30 years)

[Boston Joe]

In any case if you do get into BH deeply, I think the other terms will become more and more familiar to you. The only problem as I say is communicating to those who haven't gone down the rabbit hole.

My intent is to at least stick with the harmonic stuff until I'm fluent with it. I'm not sure whether I'll get into the single note stuff or not. (I'm leaning towards it at this point, mostly out of curiosity as to how it differs from David Baker's stuff.) I'm sure as I learn more, I'll adopt the terminology more. Right now, I just really want to get my comping together in a serious way. I learned a half-assed version of this system a long time ago, so I do use it to some extent. So, I'd like to learn it properly. (Plus, I have my JSO membership, so why not do the Rees course as well?)

[joe2758]

Christian I think you already know this, but just incase: Howard Reese teaches the “rules” on melodic minor and they sound good and make sense. I haven’t seen or heard Barry teach them

[joe2758]

yeah, BJ, I took the JSO for a month and took down notes for all the single note stuff. You’ll be in really good shape if you do that. you can just look at it later.

[Boston Joe]

yeah, BJ, I took the JSO for a month and took down notes for all the single note stuff. You’ll be in really good shape if you do that. you can just look at it later.

Well, I just got charged for my second month, so I'll do that, plus I'll watch the videos for a couple of weeks.

[joe2758]

I limited by options by sticking with first string starting points. so in CAGED terms:
C shape- start on 5 or 4, maybe 3
A shape- start on 6 or 5, maybe 7


Otherwise it was way too much.

they also sound twice as cool if you slur from the “and” to the beat a few times per run.

[christianm77]

Just getting the scale outlines up to speed on all positions is both a great exercise for fretboard knowledge, technique and changes playing.

[Boston Joe]

How are you guys doing? I like to see the posts from those just getting into it because it reminds me of my exciting aha moments

I also hope to encourage people to not stop investigating after the 6th dim scales

Doing OK for now. I'm trying to consolidate what I've learned and get consistent with it. I still can't do a lot of the conversions on the fly, so still working on that, and on having the voicings on the middle four strings really nailed. Also working a little with mixing voicings on the top four and middle four.

I can comp my way through "Alone Together" like nobody's business. We did it in my ensemble last night, and I was hopping around the fretboard pretty easily. I also have a VERY basic chord-melody arrangement, and am working on fleshing that out with bass notes, etc. Basically, I'm trying to use this song as a prototype. I'm working on other songs as well, but I started with AT, so it's the most developed.

If I work up the gumption, maybe this weekend, I'll post a video.

I'm trying to take my time with this, so I don't intend to move on from this very basic stuff until I can comp my way through a chart I've never worked on before with the same ease.

I haven't gotten much into borrowing, except to note that my pet voicings can all be looked at as 6th chords with borrowed notes.

[joe2758]

Awesome man. Hammering those 6 dim scales will make borrowing a lot easier. I got into borrowing before the 6 dim scales were second nature, so I had to think “ok this is the 6th of my chord so i can borrow a b6 or 7.” The reality now is the 6 dim scale shapes are so ingrained I don’t need to think like that at all, you just see it on the fretboard

[Tal_175]

Major 6 dim scale chord movement examples in the book alternate Maj6 voicings and the Dim chord (symmetrical) voicings of the scale.
When I instead alternate Maj7 voicings with the Dim chord voicings the movement still sounds very good.
Is it safe to generalize this movement to any diatonic chord of the major scale?
Edit: Of course anything can work in some context for some people. I mean this question more from the standard theory point of view.

[joe2758]

I think that’s what wes mongomery did. It’s just not as symetrical. for instance going up the scale how’s the 6th harmonized? Does the 7th get a dim chord or a major chord?

Anyway, yeah it still sounds good. In my opinion an even cooler sound is borrowing through the whol scale.

Stratt on drop 3 maj7. The seven is borrowing a diminished note in the tenor voice (borrowing from above). so go up the 6th dim scale and for every chord the tenor voice would be one scale tone higher. your next chord after G maj 7 is A m7b5 etc

[Tal_175]

I think that’s what wes mongomery did. It’s just not as symetrical. for instance going up the scale how’s the 6th harmonized? Does the 7th get a dim chord or a major chord?

Anyway, yeah it still sounds good. In my opinion an even cooler sound is borrowing through the whol scale.

Stratt on drop 3 maj7. The seven is borrowing a diminished note in the tenor voice (borrowing from above). so go up the 6th dim scale and for every chord the tenor voice would be one scale tone higher. your next chord after G maj 7 is A m7b5 etc

I'll try these. Thanks.

[Tal_175]

I think that’s what wes mongomery did. It’s just not as symetrical. for instance going up the scale how’s the 6th harmonized? Does the 7th get a dim chord or a major chord?

Anyway, yeah it still sounds good. In my opinion an even cooler sound is borrowing through the whol scale.

Stratt on drop 3 maj7. The seven is borrowing a diminished note in the tenor voice (borrowing from above). so go up the 6th dim scale and for every chord the tenor voice would be one scale tone higher. your next chord after G maj 7 is A m7b5 etc

Oh wait. Do you mean traveling through diatonic chords while inserting Dim in between or taking any chord and applying the Dim movement to it? I sort of meant the second. But may be didn't think through enough. What I mean is:
Cmaj7 -> Alternate with B Dim.
Dmin7 -> Alternate with Db Dim.
Emin7 -> Alternate with Eb Dim.
...
So can any chord be played with a movement alternating with the voicings of the diminished chord half note below?

[joe2758]

yes you can do that. prove it to yourself by thinking biii dims pull to I or ii function (iii, IV, vi). ii dims pull to I, iii, vi. bii dims pull to ii and IV. I prefer this more diatonic thinking as opposed to, C6 dim, F6 dim etc for every chord

[don_oz]

Major 6 dim scale chord movement examples in the book alternate Maj6 voicings and the Dim chord (symmetrical) voicings of the scale.
When I instead alternate Maj7 voicings with the Dim chord voicings the movement still sounds very good.
Is it safe to generalize this movement to any diatonic chord of the major scale?
Edit: Of course anything can work in some context for some people. I mean this question more from the standard theory point of view.

As far as I understand, correct me if I'm wrong someone. In Barry's method thing if you use a Major 7 voicing e.g C E G B. The B is considered as a borrowed diminished note, as it is present in the symmetrical diminished chord you alternate with in the 6th dim scale. So when you play the next chord which would be Ddim as you borrowed the B from the D dim for the Cmaj7 you would borrow the next note from the Cmaj 6 chord which would make the D dim as follows D F Ab C (the C being the borrowed note). If you are playing in drop 2 it can be voiced like this:
C, G, B, E -> D, Ab, C, F
Played on the A string first chord starts on 3rd fret:
X 3 5 4 5 X -> X 5 6 5 6 X

The reason why the 6th dim scale is so effective in my opinion is because all the voices in the chord moves in steps, creating movement hence why Barry is such an advocate of this method. If you are using Cmaj7 as the tonic there will be one stationary note each time you move.
However with all that said regarding what you were doing, if it sounds good then who cares!

Hope you understand! You probably know more about the system than me anyways!

Ozzy

[joe2758]

for V it cones from V7 dom dim scale, the vii hald dim comes from iim6 dim scale... the other ones as above

[Tal_175]

As far as I understand, correct me if I'm wrong someone. In Barry's method thing if you use a Major 7 voicing e.g C E G B. The B is considered as a borrowed diminished note, as it is present in the symmetrical diminished chord you alternate with in the 6th dim scale. So when you play the next chord which would be Ddim as you borrowed the B from the D dim for the Cmaj7 you would borrow the next note from the Cmaj 6 chord which would make the D dim as follows D F Ab C (the C being the borrowed note). If you are playing in drop 2 it can be voiced like this:
C, G, B, E -> D, Ab, C, F
Played on the A string first chord starts on 3rd fret:
X 3 5 4 5 X -> X 5 6 5 6 X

The reason why the 6th dim scale is so effective in my opinion is because all the voices in the chord moves in steps, creating movement hence why Barry is such an advocate of this method. If you are using Cmaj7 as the tonic there will be one stationary note each time you move.
However with all that said regarding what you were doing, if it sounds good then who cares!

Hope you understand! You probably know more about the system than me anyways!

Ozzy

This makes sense. Though I haven't covered the borrowing part yet. I'm hoping that when I cover all the concepts, I'll be able to appreciate the elegant big picture and see that there was a point to all this re-shuffling of the standard theory all along. Otherwise I'll reinterpret my learnings back to the standard theory and keep the profit.

[don_oz]

This makes sense. Though I haven't covered the borrowing part yet. I'm hoping that when I cover all the concepts, I'll be able to appreciate the elegant big picture and see that there was a point to all this re-shuffling of the standard theory all along. Otherwise I'll reinterpret my learnings back to the standard theory and keep the profit.

Yeah man I completely agree with your point of view it's all about making it work for you.

Ozzy

[grahambop]

Some nice comping ideas here using those Barry chords we should all know and love by now!

[alltunes]

Another forum member pointed out Jude Gold's excellent Podcast "No Guitar is Safe". Episode#63 features Josh Workman. At the 25:00 minute mark he succinctly explains the Barry Harris thing. Josh focuses on the top four strings which I find easier to digest.

Scroll down here:

[Tal_175]

Another forum member pointed out Jude Gold's excellent Podcast "No Guitar is Safe". Episode#63 features Josh Workman. At the 25:00 minute mark he succinctly explains the Barry Harris thing. Josh focuses on the top four strings which I find easier to digest.

Scroll down here:

There is a guitar player article where he talks about diminished scale/chord a la Barry Harris:
Demystifying the Diminished Chord - GuitarPlayer.com

I attached the pdf of the article as the page does not load exercise images very well.

[Mark M.]

Some nice comping ideas here using those Barry chords we should all know and love by now!

These lessons are a gold mine! Check out all 16 episodes.