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Well things like this would imply you think kind of not like John Coltrane at all. So ….
Originally Posted by ragman1
Yes, my son?
I don't think they'll be opening the Church of St. Rag just yet
… before you get to high on your horse.I've had another go at this and it's still nonsense. It's like you're playing in the wrong key or something. Who said there were no wrong notes!
Excuse the hesitations, my brain was objecting to it. In fact, it cheated automatically by putting a pick-up before the F# or making the F# itself a pick-up. And it still sounds awful :-)
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01-24-2024 12:51 PM
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No, Pete, you see, that's the difference, Coltrane took it seriously, I don't. I really don't mind, to me it's just music stuff. Which I like doing, admittedly, and I give it my attention. But to him, probably, it was his life's mission or something.
How about you, if I can ask. Is it very important to you or just something passing?
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Ah yes. We’ve finally isolated the difference between Internet Ragman and John Coltrane. And not a moment too soon. Originally Posted by ragman1
As for that last bit, I’ll let you turn that one over on your own.
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But, I think Lester Young deserves a lot of the initial credit, his opening line on 'Jumping at the Woodside' 1938 is interesting.
His thrice repeated opening six note phrase is so rhythmically strong, it doesn't matter where the phrase starts, then it resolves on the one with the 5th, an 'F'.
Solo starts at 1:43min
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One of the most resilient blues riffs of all time still employed regularly by rock and blues guitarists today.
Lester Young is so important regarding the topic discussed here. Unlike his contemporary Coleman Hawkins who is generally considered a 'vertical' improviser (his lines tend to conform closely to the harmony expressed at any time), Young often took a more cavalier approach to the changes where the melodic and rhythmic quality of the line itself is of more importance. On that point, note how many of his Lester's riffs including the one mentioned above are quite harmonically ambiguous.
I think of the way players like Young, Parker, Sonny Rollins and so many others that followed in their wake move these figures around as almost like shifts in tectonic plates. An interesting later example can be found in Donna Lee. It seems likely to me that the opening melodic statement was initially placed from the first beat. It is certainly more classically 'correct' in that version where guide tone 7ths and 3rds coincide with the downbeats of each bar:
Last edited by PMB; 01-24-2024 at 08:35 PM.
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Thats an interesting observation. Interesting to think of the harmonic freedom in Charlie Parker as a combination of the change playing in Coleman Hawkins with the melodic riffing of Lester Young. Originally Posted by PMB
One of the most resilient blues riffs of all time still employed regularly by rock and blues guitarists today.
Lester Young is so important regarding the topic discussed here. Unlike his contemporary Coleman Hawkins who is generally considered a 'vertical' improviser (his lines tend to conform closely to the harmony expressed at any time), Young often took a more cavalier approach to the changes where the melodic and rhythmic quality of the line itself is of more importance. On that point, note how many of his Lester's riffs including the one mentioned above are quite harmonically ambiguous.
I think of the way players like Young, Parker, Sonny Rollins and so many others that followed in their wake move these figures around as almost like shifts in tectonic plates. An interesting later example can be found in Donna Lee. It seems likely to me that the opening melodic statement was initially placed from the first beat. It is certainly more classically 'correct' in that version where guide tone 7ths and 3rds coincide with the downbeats of each bar:
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The idea of starting licks in different places - before the 1, on the 1, or after the 1 - is certainly not new.
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well, he cited three saxophonists who were in their prime 70-90 years ago, so you’d be right on that one. Originally Posted by ragman1
None of the ideas in this thread are new. No one was saying they were that I recall.
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Excellent.
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I’m quite resigned to any ideas I have being thought of by someone else first, even when I haven’t heard them elsewhere….
Tbh the only people who think they are consistently original are the ignorant.
Developing and working with something, seeing it through, on the other hand….Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-25-2024 at 01:41 PM.
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Quite. In fact, I'd say it was actually impossible to be consistently original. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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big time agree with that one. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Usually the first warning sign is “I don’t learn licks; I play what I hear.”
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It seems so obvious in hindsight but it took a genius like Parker to make that move (even if the example I cited was most likely written by Miles Davis with a generous helping of Fats Navarro). Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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What's relevant to the thread is how that 'unmooring' can potentially lead to situations where non-harmonic tones (eg, F# over D-7, C over G7, F over Cmaj7) occur. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Quite so. But, if I may bring myself into it a little, it's something I could never do consciously. I know intuitively that deliberately starting a line in the wrong place would almost inevitably result in notes falling in all the wrong places and produce a cacophony, not music.
Pretending a stupid noise is somehow advanced jazz is one of its greatest faults.
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jazz, free improvisation and cacophony Originally Posted by ragman1
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Almost by definition, you could fix this problem by putting a second “wrong” note in your line. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by StevenA
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Examples? Originally Posted by ragman1
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jazz, free improvisation and cacophony Originally Posted by StevenA
What am I supposed to be reading here? It's a big site with many articles.
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Surely, but why have to go to the trouble of correcting a mistake that didn't need to be made in the first place? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Don't you know? Originally Posted by James W
Deep, man, really deep...
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Because it wasn’t a mistake in the first place. Originally Posted by ragman1
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And I suppose you are going to produce some evidence that Cecil Taylor called what he did 'advanced jazz'? Originally Posted by ragman1
Incidentally, I am not interested so much in whether what someone calls what they do jazz. I'm just concerned with how good their music sounds.
In any case, I am enjoying this Cecil Taylor video, so thanks.
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Striking lack of imagination from The Man Who Thinks Like John Coltrane. Originally Posted by ragman1
Also this is quite the bait and switch … you’re using heavy New Thing Free Jazz, but all we’re talking about here is using dissonant non-chord tones at the beginning of a line.
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