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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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11-27-2017 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Okay. Here's my nutshell description and hopefully an example.
Take the major scale and harmonize it and you get a set of chords:
I^7 II-7 III-7 IV7#11 V7 VI-7 VIIº
Each of those chords is built on a successive degree of the scale, as the roman numeral indicates.
Now, take that same major scale, and start the scale from each successive note, and what you get is this:
I - Ionian (major)
II - Dorian
III - Phrygian
IV - Lydian
V - Mixolydian
VI - Aolean (natural minor)
VII - Locrian
Now, given that the chords, and the modes each start on a given degree of the scale, you could say that each chord corresponds to a mode.
I^7 = Ionian
II-7 = Dorian
III-7 = Phrygian
etc.
Now notice. If you have a minor 7 chord, there are three modes that will "fit" over that chord - Dorian, Phrygian, and Aolean.
If you have a major 7 chord, there are two modes that fit - Ionian and Lydian
If you have a dominant 7 chord, Mixolydian
If you have a m7b5 chord, Locrian.
Notice that all of these chords and modes are in the same key. These are just ways of rearranging the same 7 notes. So, if you're in C, and you see a D-7 chord, you know that's a II-7 chord, and you know the II-7 mode is Dorian, so you can play D Dorian (which is really just C major played from D to D) over that chord.
If you saw D-7 | G7 | C^7, you could look at it as D Dorian, G Mixolydian, and C Ionian.
Why is this bad on "normal" functional tunes? Because you have a lot of extraneous information gumming up your brain. All three of those chords are in C, and if you have a good sense of where the chord tones are (and this is where Reg's hammering of "get your basic skills together" comes in), you can make melodies around them without having to worry about DoriPhrygiWhatever. All you're doing is shuffling C Major around.
Why is this good on a modal tune? Because if you've got four bars of E-7 with no other context, it gives you a lot of choices for what to play. E Dorian would sound the most "vanilla". E Aolean gives you a b6 which can be interesting. E Phrygian gives you a b6 and a b9, and is a little more exotic, etc. Depending on what you want to hear on the tune, you could make some interesting choices that way.
Bear in mind that these are just the modes of the major scale. There are also modes of the Harmonic Major, Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor as well.
That is the most dead basic short description of CST I can think of, and obviously it's way, way oversimplified. But the point is, it's a method for finding a scale that "fits" any given chord, and there could be several of those. But if you understand basic dominant-to-tonic motion, CST is really overkill. CST is best for tunes that DON'T have a lot of dominant-to-tonic motion.
So, let's look at the first four bars of Autumn leaves:
A-7 | D7 | G^7 | C^7
All of those chords are in GMajor, so you don't really need CST to address them, BUT, if you were going to, you'd say A Dorian, D Mixo, G Ionian, C Lydian.
By way of contrast, Maiden Voyage goes D9sus for four bars, then F9sus for four bars, etc.
Those two chords are not in the same key, and there's no other cues as to what they are. So you could play D Mixo, then F Mixo, and you'd be on pretty solid ground. Because they're not "going" anywhere, it's all about how the individual notes relate to the chord, and less about where the chord is going.
Does that give you any help?
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I will add on topic, as per my understanding, you can use it whenever you feel like it. It won't sound good on Wine and Roses?! Says who? Not to mention that it absolutely has no sound of it's own. It is not "how to play" tuition, not even "what to play" method, not even guitar specific, not even Jazz. It's kind of list (of possible understandings and first level immediate interpretations of harmonic context of the chord of the moment) generator What you will do with, use of ... play over ... derive from, synthesize ... any of listed items is completely at your artistic sensibility.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
His playing and fast delivery may be a little overwhelming at first. :-) but there're is definitely a lot of great stuff, even for hobbyists like myself. Below is a little of my take on some of this stuff. Again, in my opinion, CST is not for finding formulas for playing inside sounds on traditional harmony, nor is it only for modern modal playing. It's also for finding new collections of "outside " pitches for targeting traditional harmony as well.
Think about it. No one tells you you can't use "random chromatics" in traditional tunes, and no one ever says you have to play all inside. You can use CST to access outside pitch collections as well. It isn't simply just for modal playing etc. So, why is CST only for inside or modern/modal. It can also be for "organizing outside pitch collections, blue notes and chromatics. It's actually a lot more than that at the macro/form level, but let's at least start the conversation at basic. Are chromatics allowed in traditional, and if so, might there be a context for CST in THAT?
Hobbyist ramblings :
Sorry for the mistakes in my comments and playing issues. Makes me pretty nervous posting something like this. But honestly, I think a BASIC level of understanding some of these concepts is FOR just about ANYONE can play at little jazz.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 11-27-2017 at 09:15 PM.
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Jesus Christmas.
Pee Wee is on Miles' Sorcerer. It's not like I pulled the world's most obscure tune our of my ass.
If anybody read a single post I've ever written about CST, I've always said it makes sense in some situations...nothe in others.
And nobody's making "fun" of rpjazzguitars question. I'm trying to help.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
If anything, it feels very authentic to most of us who have had the same questions in the past. It can feel very "Emperor's New Clothes" until you understand some of it.
EDIT: Ok. The wrench thing. I just thought that was pretty obviously understood as not being directed AT anyone. Sure wouldn't have read it that way.
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Actually, I definitely directed the wrench/hammer comment at rp, but it was intended to be funny but also helpful.
Wine and Roses isn't a tuNE CST helps in the least with...so yeah, you could apply ideas, as christain showed...but it's pointless.
Now...take a tune modal in nature or write with non functonal harmony...big difference.
Apparently nobody's ever heard "pee wee." How about "Maiden Voyage?"
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Seems to me that everyone has been pretty generous with their time in trying to address my question.
I appreciate that.
My next step is to watch some of Reg's videos.
Thus far, some of the discussion in the abstract whizzes over my head, but the examples all seem familiar.
So, my approach, when I'm choosing to think about it, is I start with the chord tones and the consonant extensions, like 6 nat 7 and 9 on a major. That's 6 notes. I know that b3, b7 and b9 can sound bad if used without a strong melodic line. There are three others. 11, #11, #5. I know what they sound like and where they are.
So, for example, I know I can use alt on dominant resolving to a tonic. I can choose to think about altered 5 and 9, or I can think m9 chord a half step up, or I can think 7th mode melodic minor, or I can think licks. Or I can sing quietly to myself and play whatever that might be. I also know that some of those alterations will sound better an octave up.
Since I know the notes in the chords I use, it's no mystery to see, when I change chords, which voices are static and which move - and by how much. That gives access to guide tone lines. A little more theory might help me locate similar lines in the extensions, but on guitar it's often feasible to do that by thinking about grips. This is something that I have always loved about Jim Hall's comping.
I know there's overlap with CST.
When I watch Reg's videos I'm going to looking for some other benefits.
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Originally Posted by Vladan
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Most think scale on chord, or they play bop lines etc. The scale on chord thing is quite static. I like what you are talking about, it seems an extension of bop practices.
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I thought I should leave this unaddressed, but since I have nothing smarter to do at the moment :
Originally Posted by mr. beaumontOriginally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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To me CST is just the basic idea... that any chord has some related scales...
It only defines that they are realted through common tones... what tones you put in between is absolutely up to your ear and taste.
So theoretically it's a oncepetion that distincts chords from scales as separate elements...
What's interesting about it is that it brings in that mutual realtion between two elements...
chord seems to be more like an actual realization of a scale... and scale is more like a potential abstarct musical material...
The melodic line is something that outlines both... it actually shows how you hear the realtions between the chords and scale tones that are not included in the chord...
so in real practice you come again to vertical harmony as more staticl point and melodic line that moves from one poit to another...
Disclaimer: this concerns also inner voices in chords too, not only distinct melody...
That's it.
What you do with that is up to you...
you can use it with functional harmony, modal, build some other chords from scale tones and use them as subs for original chord... will it be convincing? I think yes if you are convinced you hear this relation and can show it through playing...
you can build up your own harmonic relations through this... you can do whatever you want actually...
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Jonah
... or, you can vary both at the same time.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I've been getting a huge amount done (in several areas of life) in a very short time of late - and I mention it here because, although it could accurately be described as such, it doesn't actually feel like 'work'. But somehow or another, 'the (learning) work' needs to get done - case in point, the consolidation of what Boston Joe presents in post #477.
Speaking only for myself, reading books about music feels like a chore - unless I'm not just interested but totally engrossed. Even then, I don't believe that the act of reading - in and of itself - benefits me beyond the fact of enjoyment. I say that as one who has devoured a large number of jazz theory books without understanding (back in the early eighties, when I helped out non-English speaking musician friends by translating).
One of Christian's posts contained what could be read as both a helpful challenge and something of a minefield - and I was reminded of a particular practice of mine (informal, in my case), prompted by a book (Patti Coker's A Vocal Approach to Jazz Improvisation) but also taken up back in the early eighties. For me, what Christian asked points to the practice - and yes, that practice is ear-training - by way of its possible outcomes.
Which brings me back to reading - and to my bus journey home yesterday... Because, on reading the question about applying CST to The Days of Wine and Roses and finding that I can instantly hear the scales running root-to-root, I decided to see whether I could 'hear' the lead sheet for a tune I'd just received by email on my phone.
Now, my point is not about the outcome of my own or anyone else's ear-training efforts. Neither is it about anyone's stylistic preferences - nor, for that matter, their signature licks.
My point is about the importance of applying oneself through rigorous thinking, right motive, right challenge and right skills. Faber est suae quisque fortunae - in other words:
Last edited by destinytot; 11-28-2017 at 07:07 AM.
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OK simple use of CST with Days of Wine and Roses
You need to start with something as a reference... I'll use Christians 1st 8 bars. (The actual version doesn't mater).
Fmaj7 / Eb7 / D7 / =ll= /
G-7 / -ll- / Bb-6 / -//- /
So the basic chord tones are spelled out.
The analysis would be,
Ima7 to bVll7 to VI7 (VI7 can be V7 of II)
II-7 to IV-6
There are choices... established choices for what the related scales would be for that analysis.. That would be based on Functional Harmony and Melody.
So Imaj7 is usually Ionian, the melody has 3rd, 5th and 9th. 2nd choice would be Lydian, from there you would be stretching harmony to get other choices.
bVII7 is usually Lydian b7 ... melody has 3rd, #11 and 13th (bVII7 usually from Parallel Minor, Fmaj becoming Fmin. and what is called Sub dominant minor chords, the diatonic chords constructed from each scale degree from Fmin. or the subV7 fo V7 of VI7)
VI7 has all the standard V7 chord choices, melody has R, 5th and b7. You need to make choice of Function of chord. Is it going to G-7, which would mean it has Dominant function to a target chord... the G-7.
Anyway... then II-7 , Dorian or Natural Minor, depending on your choice for function of G-7. Dorian for Subdominant or even Aeloian for borrowing or modal interchange version of G-7 as a modulation or temp. Tonic.
and then back to bVII7 going to Imaj7.
So using CST... I have scales based on what function I want to give starting chords. By deciding on Function of chords... there are standard choices for which scales are implied. Now I can start improvising or if arranging the tune, what note collections and guidelines for those notes I can pull from when voicing out... 5 part sax section...whatever.
The point is there are choices.... by changing Function... (why and where the chords want to go... movement). I have choices of how I want to harmonically organize the tune. I can choose different chord patterns to approach existing chords... reinforcing different choices of Function which imply different Note Collections.
Obviously you need to be aware of as many possible harmonic understandings which are from different possible analysis.
And when playing in jazz style... your looking for different relationships to create and develop. Just like embellishing the existing melody or basic changes etc... CST is just a set of basic harmonic and melodic references that are from analysis of jazz tunes and jazz performers...
There are more or less... depending on what you understand and what your willing to try and understand... or for most of you, what you may feel and hear.
I'm short on time... I'll check in later and try and clean up post...Reg
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I'll add my own comments and thoughts....
Originally Posted by Reg
bVII7 is usually Lydian b7 ... melody has 3rd, #11 and 13th (bVII7 usually from Parallel Minor, Fmaj becoming Fmin. and what is called Sub dominant minor chords, the diatonic chords constructed from each scale degree from Fmin. or the subV7 fo V7 of VI7)
Again, do this on a piano. It all makes sense.
VI7 has all the standard V7 chord choices, melody has R, 5th and b7. You need to make choice of Function of chord. Is it going to G-7, which would mean it has Dominant function to a target chord... the G-7.
I actually used to hate the sound of altered/tritone sub here, but have come around to it. The b5 on VI7 (Ab) is pretty strong, but it works if you hear II-7 as a G minor tonic rather than a F major subdominant... Oh wait:
Anyway... then II-7 , Dorian or Natural Minor, depending on your choice for function of G-7. Dorian for Subdominant or even Aeloian for borrowing or modal interchange version of G-7 as a modulation or temp. Tonic.
and then back to bVII7 going to Imaj7.
So using CST... I have scales based on what function I want to give starting chords. By deciding on Function of chords... there are standard choices for which scales are implied. Now I can start improvising or if arranging the tune, what note collections and guidelines for those notes I can pull from when voicing out... 5 part sax section...whatever.
The point is there are choices.... by changing Function... (why and where the chords want to go... movement). I have choices of how I want to harmonically organize the tune. I can choose different chord patterns to approach existing chords... reinforcing different choices of Function which imply different Note Collections.
Obviously you need to be aware of as many possible harmonic understandings which are from different possible analysis.
And when playing in jazz style... your looking for different relationships to create and develop. Just like embellishing the existing melody or basic changes etc... CST is just a set of basic harmonic and melodic references that are from analysis of jazz tunes and jazz performers...
There are more or less... depending on what you understand and what your willing to try and understand... or for most of you, what you may feel and hear.
I'm short on time... I'll check in later and try and clean up post...Reg
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To play devil's advocate a little...
You could arrive at those Lydian sounds and never think about a scale too, right?
The chord on the paper says "maj7." But we all know that's a suggestion...it's a "sound." The sound of this chord is major. It has a major 7th in it...but I see that and think, "well, what else works?"
That #4 (11) is either going to work or not...you'll hear it. And if it works, you're in Lydian territory, yes...but maybe you never thought once about that "scale."
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My default Barry-ish scale running choices (traditional bopp-ish)
F major - F major
Eb7 - Eb dominant
D7b9 - F dominant running into the third of D7 = D Reg dominant - D Eb F F# G A Bb C
Gm - G minor (mel, harm, nat, dorian, whatevs - most bop lines mix them up. Maybe the BH min6-dim for shits and giggles?)
Bbm6 Eb7 - Eb dominant.
Dominant - Mixolydian in the simplest use.
NOTE - no melodic minor modes. Melody notes not considered in scale choices.
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What is revealed when we look at a chart of a tune?
There are the literal chord symbols be they streamlined or nuanced.
Since harmony is sounded by the sum total of all notes played, it makes
sense to integrate the melody to create a fuller harmonic conception.
It is possible that melody notes + chord symbol may already indicate all or most of the notes of a scale/mode.
When a given measure and chord only contains some of the scale notes, the melody notes in the adjacent measures
can also be considered. Does this matter?
What about chromatic notes in the melody?
How are they to be understood? Are they notes approaching chord tones?
Do they spring from a larger entity, an approach chord?
Can that approach chord also be connected to a source scale?
Making connections to the larger note collection of a scale, provides a larger pool of notes to interact with.
The ear being the only true arbiter of what works when and what doesn't.
Rhythmic language, motifs, melodic contours, poetic impressions, etc., also things to consider.
Are we improvising on chord changes or on a composition?
One way or another, we form a starting reference of the song.
So what happens then?
Is our starting reference the final word or can we also re-conceptualize in real time.
Can designated targets be approached via different pathways?
Can the harmony be streamlined, perhaps a whole approach to a cadence reduced to movements
around a dominant pedal tone?
When we play solo, there are many unique liberties that can be taken. When playing in a duo, trio, quartet, nonet, etc.,
what are we inspired to/willing to risk integrating into the ensemble experience?
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I think I'm learning that a lot of people out there take chord charts a lot more literally than I do. I have to remember that when I'm "helping." Otherwise I'm just "confusing."
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Okay so i finally got all this totally figured out and managed to get it onto a single blackboard...
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by christianm77
- This is actually less diatonic than the CST example
- We are really thinking of two keys - F going into G minor then back to F
- Use of the backdoor is so common in bop as to be a default choice in itself, for instance:
Gm7 C7 F
Gets a minor ii-V sub
Gm7b5 (C7b9) F
Which is the same thing as a backdoor
Eb7 (Eo7) F
Which is also Eb dominant to the 3rd of C7, OR Reg Dominant again. (C Db Eb E F G Ab Bb)
- Use these scales to create accompaniment for the melody, and you will clash. They are purely for soloing.
Bop common practice (AFAIK) keeps it relatively simple in accompaniment (think shell voicings etc), while CST gives you scalic options that agree with the melody that can be used for voicings/arrangements etc as described by Reg, and allows integration between the left and right hands in piano playing (think Herbie Hancock) - which to me is where CST diverges with older practice.
Now on the latter point, Barry has a different way of enriching left hand harmony beyond Bud Powell's stride derived voicings or the more modern 1-3-7 voicings:
If we ignore the Eb7, the whole thing is in two Barry Harris 6-dim scales:
| Fmaj6-dim | % | Gmin6-dim | % |
| Gmin6-dim | % | Fmaj6-dim | % |
The F6-dim scale includes the Bbm6 sound, BTW, which is close enough for jazz, perhaps. Add in the Eb7 if you like!
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