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Hey guys,
I was reading this article about arpeggios, and The following is what I copied and pasted out of the article, so that you can see exactly what it said.
My questions is, what is the theory behind the whole "counting up 6 steps through the musical alphabet? I'm not quite sure why that works? Can anyone help me out?
Here is the link to the original website if needed...
Improvising With Arpeggios: Free Jazz Guitar Soloing Lesson 1 by Tony Oreshko
Using Substitution
Because of the marvels of chord substitution, this Bm7b5 arpeggio can also be used for soloing on top of a G7 chord. By using a Bm7b5 over a G7 chord we end up with a very jazzy G9 sound. The best way to think of it is as an alias: Bm7b5 aka (also known as) G9 arpeggio.
Counting 6 Steps
To work out these aliases we just count 6 steps through the musical alphabet. Here's what I mean: We started with a Bm7b5 arpeggio, so we take the root note, B. We now count up 6 inclusive from B:
B - C - D - E - F - G
You'll see G is 6 steps above B. This means Bm7b5 is equal to G9
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02-21-2011 11:59 AM
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G B D F A C E------1 3 5 b7 9 11 13
Using snapshot views like Bm7b5 = G9 delivers some great usable sounds but requires a great deal of memorization.
Brett Willmott's "Complete Book of Harmony Theory and Voicing" has compiled the largest number of these relationships in one place that I have seen.
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Instead of counting up 6, you can count down 3.
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I works because a Bmin7b5 is basically a G 9 without the root.
G 7: G B D F
G 9: G B D F A
B-7b5: B D F A
The easiest way to think of it is a min7b5 chord built on the 3rd of the dominant chord.
Ex: C7 --> E-7b5
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+1
Originally Posted by Aristotle
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Yeah, any diatonic 7th chord built of the third of the original chord will just give you a rootless 9th chord of the original. To generalize Jeff's example with just scale tones and ignoring chromatic inflection:
any original 7th chord : .... 1 3 5 7
any original 9th chord : .... 1 3 5 7 9
sub 7th chord built of the 3rd: 3 5 7 9
So, any diatonic 7th chord built of the 3rd of the original chord will give a diatonic rootless 9th chord of the original. This is a very common substitution and is so benign it almost isn't a sub. There is a whole family of them:
Em7 = rootless CMaj9
Em7b5 = rootless C9
Edim7 = rootless C7b9
EbMaj7 = rootless Cm9
Those are the basics.
As mentioned, that up 6 is the same as going down 3. It is just the reverse of what we just did, going from the sub to see what the original chord was.
Peace,
Kevin
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Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
Wow...another aha moment. Thanks so much this all makes sense...One quick question, what do you mean by Diatonic?
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What do you mean by plus 1? Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I just wanna make sure i understand EVERYTHING u guys are saying
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Sorry, that's just internet lingo for "I agree with this statement." Originally Posted by JazzFanatik
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+1 on the -3? Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
FWIW Fanatik, I clicked the lnk to listen to the fellow play over a blues progression with rootless 9th arpeggios. I hate keep being the lone curmudgeon on these "modern" rote training methods - but do you really like that?
I think Beau recently posted something about careful what you practice, that's what's going to come out later when your improvising. He reminded of something I told a fellow at the gym a few weeks ago - your training ought to look like the thing that you are training for, because it IS what you are training for.
IMO, it would be better to practice these arps out of the chord form. Start with XX3435, play the arpeggio, move up to XX7767, etc. One time through tell yourself its Bm7b5, the next time G9, the next Dm6.
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, Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
LOL oooh okay good to know? I was like wait? count back 3 plus 1???
Thanks, now i know!
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Good advice..did i like it? UUm somewhat, it was different it wasn't the best thing I had ever heard, but definitely something different than I would have played. Originally Posted by Aristotle
+1 on the -3?
FWIW Fanatik, I clicked the lnk to listen to the fellow play over a blues progression with rootless 9th arpeggios. I hate keep being the lone curmudgeon on these "modern" rote training methods - but do you really like that?
I think Beau recently posted something about careful what you practice, that's what's going to come out later when your improvising. He reminded of something I told a fellow at the gym a few weeks ago - your training ought to look like the thing that you are training for, because it IS what you are training for.
IMO, it would be better to practice these arps out of the chord form. Start with XX3435, play the arpeggio, move up to XX7767, etc. One time through tell yourself its Bm7b5, the next time G9, the next Dm6.
I'm pretty new to all of this stuff, so I"m just trying to soak up as much as I can. Right now I am just trying to go over the arpeggios with the chords, i think that lesson may have been a step ahead of where I actually am, so it's something I will probably revisit in the future..
Any suggestions on how you all practice your arpeggios??
Do you just go over them over and over and try to memorize them as a shape or do you put them with chords and "improvise" while practicing? Just trying to get some ideas..
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If an extended arp is 1 3 5 7 9 (11) 13... and counting up a 3rd makes it 3 5 7 9 (11) 13... why bother double thinking? It's just rootless. They are not played in order anyway in real solos half the time.
Just think INTERVAL always. Keep it simple!
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I could have put it better. Instead of asking if you think it is good, what I really meant is - do you want to sound like that? Because if that is how you spend hours practicing...it's liable to pop out later. FWIW, I wouldn't want to sound like that. Originally Posted by JazzFanatik
Never really thought about it before, but four consecutive notes of one arpeggio is probably about as far as you would want to go in an improvised jazz melody. There would be exceptions, perhaps a fill run, or it leads to a stressed color tone, or maybe the notes are altered in the second octave??? (I am not going to pound out a few motifs just to disprove my offhand hypothesis).
Could be just my biases, but it isn't just the arpeggio is "rootless," it is homeless, without tonal gravity, and is thus melodically pointless - where at least rooted arpeggios can be turned into themes (even if they are just bugle calls).Last edited by Aristotle; 02-21-2011 at 07:36 PM.
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"Diatonic" (in this sense) just means belonging to the scale. For example, CMaj7, Dm7, Em7, FMaj7, G7, Am7 Bm7b5 are all diatonic chords to the key of C. A D7 would not be (because it contains an F#.) The notes C, D, E, F, G, A and B notes are all diatonic to C major, but an Eb wouldn't be.
Swing on.
Peace,
Kevin
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Counting 6 Steps
To work out these aliases we just count 6 steps through the musical alphabet. Here's what I mean: We started with a Bm7b5 arpeggio, so we take the root note, B. We now count up 6 inclusive from B:
B - C - D - E - F - G
You'll see G is 6 steps above B. This means Bm7b5 is equal to G9
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Wow, I've been pondering theory for donkey's years but this had me scratching my head
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This is misleading for someone relatively new (?) to jazz theory. While it is true that Bm7b5 contains most of the notes of G9, usually it is used in a completely different context: it almost always resolves to some kind of E7 dominant chord. When I see Bm7b5 in a song, I am already anticipating going to the dominant (E7 or maybe Bb7), I wouldn't want to be distracted by thoughts of G9 if I were new to the game.
Saying the two are "equal" is not true, they are not identical, if they were they wouldn't have different names.
If you are going to bother practising arpeggios for a blues in G, I think it would be better to arpeggiate the whole chord (G9), once you have learnt it then you can experiment without the root. Having the root sounds good. Lets you know where you are. And in that context (a blues in G), think of it as G9 not as Bm7b5.
As for Bm7b5, why not practice it then play the arpeggios of E7 and A minor after? That's where the chord usually leads (this is called a ii V i ). Hope this is some help
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...just to be sure, this counting 6 business is pretty unusual and unhelpful really. You don't need to do it.
But it is good to develope an idea of the degrees of the scale and the different intervals of chords.
e.g.
A B C D E F G# A B C D E F G# A (is 2 octaves of the scale of A harmonic minor)
(Count upward from E: E is 1, F is 2 etc.)
an E7 chord has:
a root 1st E
a Major 3rd G#
a perfect 5th B
a lowered 7th DLast edited by Nick0783; 02-22-2011 at 08:29 AM.
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You can also use B-7b5 as C#7b9b13, but I suppose that's beyond the point of anyone giving a fuck.
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It can also be an Asus4#5add9...or an Eb7sus2#5#11... Originally Posted by RunningBeagle
Seriously though, I do use this sort of thing fairly frequently in terms of comping (obviously not to the extreme of the examples I wrote above). Not for arpeggios though... I would personally find it easier to just play a G7 arpeggio, replacing the G with an A. To each his own.
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3 reasons I look at it this way. Originally Posted by max_power
It can also be an Asus4#5add9...or an Eb7sus2#5#11...
Seriously though, I do use this sort of thing fairly frequently in terms of comping (obviously not to the extreme of the examples I wrote above). Not for arpeggios though... I would personally find it easier to just play a G7 arpeggio, replacing the G with an A. To each his own.
1. Inversions give me the rest of the voicings.
2. -7b5 drop 2 voicings generally sound good vertically. That much is at least guaranteed out of context. However I deal with them horizontally is usually enhanced by their generally sonorous qualities.
3. I can easily access the -7b5 pentatonic
Another practical example of using a -7b5 sound is from the 5th of a sus4b9 dominant chord. So our B-7b5 works really well over E7sus4b9, as does its related -7b5 pentatonic.
-7b5 pentatonic (1, b3, 4, b5, b7) is a mode of what a minority of people call the minor pentatonic scale (1, 2, b3, 5, 6).
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It is less "jazz theory" than there are limits to guitar and finger mechanics. There are simply too few voicings available on 5-note chords (and 6-note chords) that voices have to be dropped. For example, how do you play a root position 9th-chord with the 3rd in the soprano? Originally Posted by Nick0783
Musically, you might not want a dense chord to overpower the melody. Something sparser can be easier on the ear and leave more room for the improviser to use altered notes.
FWIW, piano players leave out roots regularly and most of the time if they are playing with a bass player. The left hand on a C blues with usually look like Bb-E-A going down a step to A-Eb-G.Last edited by Aristotle; 02-22-2011 at 07:32 AM.
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I agree with all of this. My point wasn't so much that leaving out the root is bad per se. Obviously with a bassist it can help free up a lot of extra tones. Originally Posted by Aristotle
I think it is quite a confusing concept to introduce in a first lesson though. Especially expressed in such a way:
Bm7b5 equals G9. Cast your mind back to when you first learnt these shapes/chord names, do you think you would have found this helpful so early in the learning curve?
Music is a vastly intricate network of relating sounds and ideas, and we all discover these connections as our understanding increases, but some are more obscure than others. Best to start with the obvious ones I would have thought.
I've nothing against inversions, just badly paced teaching. He seems to redeem himself on the later lessons though.
To answer your question, yes, what about 2nd position C9 with an open E functioning as the third? Not very moveable I admit...
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back to your question of arpeggios...after you find the notes of the arpeggio...play them in as many positions as you can..try to "blend" them into a scale....like the G9...G B D F A...and finish that with perhaps the remainder of the C major scale...B C and then perhaps arpeggio the remainder of a C maj 7 chord - E G B ...
go through the entire C scale one chord at a time-triads first then four note 7th chords-and see the fingering patterns and how they will "blend" into each other at certain points ... they create fingering patterns that repeat ... go slow at first...these are the basics of solo work..
play well
wolf
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Cool, thanks. It sounds like it would be more beneficial to practice them in some sort of context instead of just going up and down them, thanks for the help bro. I apprecaite it. Originally Posted by wolflen
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Good tips.
To spice it up a bit you could try playing the triads / 7ths of particular tune, swinging the half beat notes. Maybe a twelve bar blues? or simple standard like "All of Me". Just a suggestion.
Yeah, context is all important. It's all about tunes at the end of the day.
Good luck!
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