Just a Gigolo C7 Bb7 A7

[alez]

I'm looking at these changes:

C | % | % | G7 |
% | Dm7 | G7 | C |
C7 | Bb7 | A7 | Dm7 |
Dm7 Bb7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | C ||

(The tune is normally played in the key of F but I've transposed it because I think C helps discussing it.)

The C7 Bb7 A7 catches my attention. My thoughts so far:

1. C7 A7 form a II-V (in this case it's even followed by its I), so you kind of go somewhere else briefly (Bb7), then resume the usual voice leading. Specifically, I'm talking about the voice leading in the notes E F E and G Ab G.

2. If you replaced the one measure long Bb7 with a II-V (Fm7 Bb7, half measure each), you'd get a "logical" movement in fourths. But, unlike the original Bb7, that doesn't work, I think. I feel like it disturbs both the harmonic rhythm and the character of the all-dominants sequence. Also Fm7 is unusual (Berklee even disregards it sort of, together with other IIs, but I'll leave it there because you don't like Berklee LOL).

Thoughts?

[alez]

And here is my cheesy playing over a software generated backing track:
https://mega.nz/file/yEg2yZZD#q5UTXK...Nf2SeA3qtWN-ww

[pamosmusic]

1. C7 A7 form a II-V (in this case it's even followed by its I), so you kind of go somewhere else briefly (Bb7), then resume the usual voice leading. Specifically, I'm talking about the voice leading in the notes E F E and G Ab G

So C7 and A7 don’t really form a ii-V because C isn’t the ii. Bb7 and A7 would be closer to the ii-V movement because that bVI7 chord is a pretty sub for V/V, particularly in a minor key. Calling it a tritone substitution for E would make sense, but it’s especially common in that I bVII7 VI7 motion you see here, going to ii. The commonly played changes to Wine and Roses and a common iteration of Dewey Square reflect that (though maybe not the originals).

2. If you replaced the one measure long Bb7 with a II-V (Fm7 Bb7, half measure each), you'd get a "logical" movement in fourths. But, unlike the original Bb7, that doesn't work, I think. I feel like it disturbs both the harmonic rhythm and the sonority of the all-dominants sequence. Also Fm7 is unusual (Berklee even disregards it sort of, together with other IIs, but I'll leave it there because you don't like Berklee LOL)

iv going to bVII is pretty common I would think. Maybe not then going to VI … or maybe I just can’t think of a tune right now.

But also that bass motion I bVII VI ((then often bVI) is a super common device in old swing tunes

[alez]

Useful insights, thanks Interesting re. bass motion and those two tunes.

In the key of C and in the key of A minor:

• G7 E7 Am(7)
• C7 A7 Dm(7)

I think those two function as minor II-V-I, don't you think?

[alez]

So C7 and A7 don’t really form a ii-V because C isn’t the ii. Bb7 and A7 would be closer to the ii-V movement because that bVI7 chord is a pretty sub for V/V, particularly in a minor key. Calling it a tritone substitution for E would make sense, but it’s especially common in that I bVII7 VI7 motion you see here, going to ii.

I've seen this in the minor blues turnaround F7 E7 Am, key of A minor. It's the first time I see a Bb7 A7 Dm(7), key of C. But it looks and sounds very logical.

[mr. beaumont]

Those last 4 bars...

ii iv / I VI7 / ii V /I

[rpjazzguitar]

If the change were C to A7, it would be pretty common.

Same for C to E7. Pretty common.

Changing the C to a C7 doesn't seem like that big a deal.

The intervening Bb7 can be considered a slide into A7 from a half step up (my term for it, I don't know the correct term, if there is one).

Or, the Bb7 is a tritone sub for E7.

Is it a ii V? Do you want to consider E7 to A7 a II7 V7 in D (major or minor) - even though the tonal center is C? I think it gets the target wrong. The progression is heading for C not D-something.

[alez]

Those last 4 bars...

ii iv / I VI7 / ii V /I

Have you posted this because you like Dm7 Fm6 C A7 Dm7 G7 better than what I wrote? I'd like to learn why. I only chose Bb7 over Fm looking at the melody and Em7 over C to get a II-V. My knowledge is very limited.

All of Me has the exact same sequence (just one chord per measure but then again, twice as fast BPM).

To me it's one of the harmonically embellished turnarounds that sound like F C G7 C. Others do F F#dim7 C/G (Bill Bailey, The Preacher)... i.e. get from F to C differently.

[alez]

If the change were C to A7, it would be pretty common.

Same for C to E7. Pretty common.

Changing the C to a C7 doesn't seem like that big a deal.

The intervening Bb7 can be considered a slide into A7 from a half step up (my term for it, I don't know the correct term, if there is one).

Or, the Bb7 is a tritone sub for E7.

I can see all of this. Thanks!

Is it a ii V? Do you want to consider E7 to A7 a II7 V7 in D (major or minor) - even though the tonal center is C? I think it gets the target wrong. The progression is heading for C not D-something.

Do you refer to this?

In the key of C and in the key of A minor:

• G7 E7 Am(7)
• C7 A7 Dm(7)

I think those two function as minor II-V-I, don't you think?

I see G7 = Bm7b5, C7 = Em7b5. In fact, for half-diminished, I've been practicing a specific piano voicing that has 1, b5, b7, 11, no b3, and those notes make a nice 9.13 dominant chord if you add a bass a major third below. To be precise, bottom to top, B E F A gives you this particular flavour of Bm7b5, or of G7 if you add a G bass.

[pamosmusic]

Useful insights, thanks Interesting re. bass motion and those two tunes.

In the key of C and in the key of A minor:

• G7 E7 Am(7)
• C7 A7 Dm(7)

I think those two function as minor II-V-I, don't you think?

Sure I guess so. C7 is a fine sub for Em7b5 and vice versa, but you can make anything a ii-V if you think hard enough.

To a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Just seems like in the key of C, I’d probably just call a C a C.

[alez]

Sure I guess so. C7 is a fine sub for Em7b5 and vice versa, but you can make anything a ii-V if you think hard enough.

To a hammer, every problem is a nail.

Just seems like in the key of C, I’d probably just call a C a C.

Oh, I see what you mean now, thanks.

Yes, the hammer-nail saying is very true, painfully.

[rpjazzguitar]

I can see all of this. Thanks!



Do you refer to this?



I see G7 = Bm7b5, C7 = Em7b5..

All I was thinking is that if the progression is C7 A7 D7 G7 C, would you want to think about C7 (bearing in mind that Em7b5 is a rootless C9) to A7 being a II V in D?

And then think of A7 to D7 as being a II V in G?

I suppose you could, but I think it might interfere with the fact that the progression resolves to C, not D or G.

[alez]

But I've seen the A section resolve to C, B section start on C7 (suggesting an F target), then A7 Dm to form the complete two-step minor cadence (whether or not you see it as a minor II-V-I). Bye Bye Blackbird comes to mind.

It Had to Be You moves to Am (not Dm this time) in the very same way.

I really thought it's a very common form of minor II-V that's not made of two movements in fourths but that's all.

[alez]

All I was thinking is that if the progression is C7 A7 D7 G7 C, would you want to think about C7 (bearing in mind that Em7b5 is a rootless C9) to A7 being a II V in D?

And then think of A7 to D7 as being a II V in G?

I suppose you could, but I think it might interfere with the fact that the progression resolves to C, not D or G.

I don't think the progression is that. I think it is:
{F-or-Dm7} {Fm-or-Bb7} {C-or-Em7} A7 Dm7 G7 C

I've seen it many times and I'm never sure which specific chords to pick when I have to write a chart.

[mr. beaumont]

Have you posted this because you like Dm7 Fm6 C A7 Dm7 G7 better than what I wrote? I'd like to learn why. I only chose Bb7 over Fm looking at the melody and Em7 over C to get a II-V. My knowledge is very limited.

All of Me has the exact same sequence (just one chord per measure but then again, twice as fast BPM).

To me it's one of the harmonically embellished turnarounds that sound like F C G7 C. Others do F F#dim7 C/G (Bill Bailey, The Preacher)... i.e. get from F to C differently.

I only like it because I learned it that way, from Louis Prima's version...which is in Ab actually!

I'll take a look later or tomorrow and chart out the whole thing...Monk of course does this too, but that's a lot trickier to figure out, and I doubt you're going to be playing his solo piano version with a group.

I might have to check out DLR's version too for kicks

[alez]

I only like it because I learned it that way, from Louis Prima's version...which is in Ab actually!

Oh, I see. Yes, his cover made the composition very popular. It's great to know that it uses those chords specifically. I've seen Dm7 Fm6 sometimes in charts (and took notice) but haven't come across recordings that back those specifically. I may change the Bb7 to a Fm6 then. I'm very curious to read what you found.

We have totally drifted from the C7 Bb7 A7 that was the subject, I hope it doesn't make the whole thing very confusing to others.

I'll take a look later or tomorrow and chart out the whole thing...Monk of course does this too, but that's a lot trickier to figure out, and I doubt you're going to be playing his solo piano version with a group.

Monk's take on solo stride piano is beautiful and dramatic.

"Later or tomorrow", you don't sleep? EDIT: ha ha, I just realised we are in totally different parts of the world.

[alez]

I might have to check out DLR's version too for kicks

I just discovered one by Sarah Vaughan too!

[mr. beaumont]

Oh, I see. Yes, his cover made the composition very popular. It's great to know that it uses those chords specifically. I've seen Dm7 Fm6 sometimes in charts (and took notice) but haven't come across recordings that back those specifically. I may change the Bb7 to a Fm6 then. I'm very curious to read what you found.

We have totally drifted from the C7 Bb7 A7 that was the subject, I hope it doesn't make the whole thing very confusing to others.



Monk's take on solo stride piano is beautiful and dramatic.

"Later or tomorrow", you don't sleep? EDIT: ha ha, I just realised we are in totally different parts of the world.

Lol, yeah...7:30pm here...about time for an old fashioned and some headphones. Dog is still on school year time, she'll wake me at 5:15 to go out

[pamosmusic]

Oh, I see what you mean now, thanks.

Yes, the hammer-nail saying is very true, painfully.

That modulation to ii in old swing tunes is pretty common, so the C7 makes for a nice pivot chord with all the common tones to Em7b5 though

[mr. beaumont]

Ok, having my old fashioned, headphones on.

Louis Prima transposed to C.

C6 | C6/9 | C Ebdim7 | Dm7 G7|
Dm7 G7 | Dm7 G7 | Dm7 G7 | C6
C7 | Bb7 | A7 | Dm |
Dm7 Fm6| C6 A7 | Dm7 G7 | C

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't think the progression is that. I think it is:
{F-or-Dm7} {Fm-or-Bb7} {C-or-Em7} A7 Dm7 G7 C

I've seen it many times and I'm never sure which specific chords to pick when I have to write a chart.

I was referring to the hypothetical progression, not the song.

If you had III7 VI7 II7 V7 Imaj, would you be thinking about multiple II Vs?

[alez]

Ok, having my old fashioned, headphones on.

Louis Prima transposed to C.

C6 | C6/9 | C Ebdim7 | Dm7 G7|
Dm7 G7 | Dm7 G7 | Dm7 G7 | C6
C7 | Bb7 | A7 | Dm |
Dm7 Fm6| C6 A7 | Dm7 G7 | C

Nice Interesting re. Dm7 Fm6, diatonic third up is less common than diatonic third down. I've also seen Dm(7) Dm7b5 to achieve the same thing, but this time followed by G7. Ending of Alone Together bridge.

I was referring to the hypothetical progression, not the song.

If you had III7 VI7 II7 V7 Imaj, would you be thinking about multiple II Vs?

Oh! No, to me the Rhythm Changes bridge is a circle of dominants. A (hypothetical) II-V version of the bridge would be
Bm7b5 | E7 | Em7 | A7 |
Am7 | D7 | Dm7 | G7 ||

The second half is of course super common.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

[...] Dm7 Fm6, diatonic third up is less common than diatonic third down. [...]

IIm7 = IV6 (inversion), so IIm7 to IVm6 to I is basically the same as IV to IVm to I but approached differently (but not too differently as I7 and VI7 belong to the same family of four dominants, the other two being bIII7 and #IV7 resp. bV7).

Examples for this movement are e.g. in It Could Happen To You, 'Til There Was You, Soultrane ...

[alez]

I'll check them out, thanks

[pamosmusic]

IIm7 = IV6 (inversion), so IIm7 to IVm6 to I is basically the same as IV to IVm to I but approached differently (but not too differently as I7 and VI7 belong to the same family of four dominants, the other two being bIII7 and #IV7 resp. bV7).

Examples for this movement are e.g. in It Could Happen To You, 'Til There Was You, Soultrane ...

Another way this is written into jazz changes is with ii(m7b5). An inverted ivm6

September Song, I’ll be Seeing You, All of You written this way in some charts, etc.