Maj7 arpeggio over Dom7 chord question

[Christian Miller]

I think it's the link you posted here that's defective, it's just: "https://soundcloud.com/pages/embed"

I suspect you'll have to copy the actual video link and post it in your reply here, rather than post a link to the SoundCloud webpage it was supposedly embedded on.

Ah I can’t be bothered to tech it out. It’s just me playing jive nonsense on Autumn Leaves anyway.

Listen to this instead

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[pamosmusic]

Ah I can’t be bothered to tech it out. It’s just me playing jive nonsense on Autumn Leaves anyway.

Listen to this instead

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you’re very welcome

[pamosmusic]

But where in that clip can I hear an illustration of the Maj.7 phrase over a Dom.7 chord you described?

In the opening phrase you can hear F#6 over G7 which is a similar, if not more dissonant choice.

[Braunny46]

Thanks for the advice. I have gotten more from the dialogue in this thread than I expected

I am indeed a newbie to jazz, so I am sincere when I say thank you.

The piece that initiated this thread can be found at 50 Jazz Guitar Licks on this site.

It's lick #3 under the 2 5 1 progressions. So, it's not a song - rather one of Dirk's educational pieces.

Tony B

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for the advice. I have gotten more from the dialogue in this thread than I expected

I am indeed a newbie to jazz, so I am sincere when I say thank you.

The piece that initiated this thread can be found at 50 Jazz Guitar Licks on this site.

It's lick #3 under the 2 5 1 progressions. So, it's not a song - rather one of Dirk's educational pieces.

Tony B

Yeah that’s just an artful way of getting that strong resolution down to the B that Christian was referring to.

Db7 is the straightforward choice but try the same line with the alternatives — Bb up to B (cool), holding the B over the bar so like an anticipated resolution (cool, but for the rhythmic reason), or Db down to B (surprisingly uncool). I think the C is actually the coolest of the bunch.

If it wasn’t obvious from my use of the word “cool” this is all totally subjective, but the salient point is that it’s that last eighth note of the bar into the downbeat of the last chord that “makes it work.”

[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks for the advice. I have gotten more from the dialogue in this thread than I expected

I am indeed a newbie to jazz, so I am sincere when I say thank you.

The piece that initiated this thread can be found at 50 Jazz Guitar Licks on this site.

It's lick #3 under the 2 5 1 progressions. So, it's not a song - rather one of Dirk's educational pieces.

Tony B

Thank you. Now that I've heard and seen the lick I can add a comment.

It's a melodic line over the Dm7. The shape of the line stays the same, but two notes are flatted over the G7. The chord is now heard as G7b9#11. That is, it's pretty much the same line, twice.

The two notes that are changed are Db and Ab, and they suggest two moving voices, D Db C and A Ab G.

The C, the 11th, which is considered by some to be an "avoid" note (not me, don't come after me on this issue <g>) occurs on the last eighth of the measure and resolves to a B on the next eighth. So, the line doesn't lean on the C (meaning, say, play it as a half note on a downbeat). It basically leads into the use of the major 7 (B) in the last bar as a resolution on the major 7th.

So, if someone asks how does Dbmaj7 work against G7, the answer suggested here is that if you play a strong enough line on the Dm7, retain the shape of the line, voice lead anticipating the C tonic, and don't play the C note until that resolution is in progress, it can work perfectly.

But, if you wanted to, you could make the Dbmaj7 sound awful.

[Christian Miller]

The C, the 11th, which is considered by some to be an "avoid" note (not me, don't come after me on this issue <g>)

:-)

So, if someone asks how does Dbmaj7 work against G7, the answer suggested here is that if you play a strong enough line on the Dm7, retain the shape of the line, voice lead anticipating the C tonic, and don't play the C note until that resolution is in progress, it can work perfectly.

But, if you wanted to, you could make the Dbmaj7 sound awful.

That reminds me Bud Powell quite often used the Dbmaj7#11 as a sub for G7 (others too I’m sure). It’s a sort of ‘softened dominant’ in that it doesn’t contain the leading tone of the key.


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[Christian Miller]

Yeah that’s just an artful way of getting that strong resolution down to the B that Christian was referring to.

Db7 is the straightforward choice but try the same line with the alternatives — Bb up to B (cool), holding the B over the bar so like an anticipated resolution (cool, but for the rhythmic reason), or Db down to B (surprisingly uncool). I think the C is actually the coolest of the bunch.

If it wasn’t obvious from my use of the word “cool” this is all totally subjective, but the salient point is that it’s that last eighth note of the bar into the downbeat of the last chord that “makes it work.”

Yes, if you are resolving to a major seventh. You want C or Bb. If you are going to the 1, Db or B, or both is a classic move.

It depends what the line and chord progression is doing as well, but that’s another conversation.


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[ragman1]

It's lick #3 under the 2 5 1 progressions.

Got it, thanks.

Well, there it is, yet another way to play the 2-5-1. I guess it doesn't explain it much, it's just a possible alternative. I have to say, though - to my ear anyway - the C note still clashes a little. But maybe my ears are sensitive.

By the way, have you tried using F melodic minor over G7? It gives a 13b9 sound because of the natural E. It's a useful one to use if you ever encounter a 13b9 chord!

[StevenA]

The sound of a maj7 a 3rd above a dominant 7 chord can be heard (seen)
in Bensons’s Billies Bounce: Amaj7 arp over F7 and Emaj7 over C7, and then a million other places besides Benson. After looking at this look at
F#maj7, Abmaj7, Dbmaj7,Ebmaj7 all subbing for G7.

[Mick-7]

The sound of a maj7 a 3rd above a dominant 7 chord can be heard (seen) in Benson’s Billies Bounce: Amaj7 arp over F7 and Emaj7 over C7, and then a million other places besides Benson.

If this is the correct recording (below), I'm not seeing it but I'll take your word for it.

I have to laugh at guys who will play a line at a very fast tempo and say, "see, you can play any note over any chord!" Yeah well, play that a moderate tempo and see how it sounds ( = )

[StevenA]

If this is the correct recording (below), I'm not seeing it but I'll take your word for it.

I have to laugh at guys who will play a line at a very fast tempo and say, "see, you can play any note over any chord!" Yeah well, play that a moderate tempo and see how it sounds ( = )

Start with the 3rd bar of the first solo.
Pat Martino plays the same thing on Donna Lee.

[Mick-7]

Start with the 3rd bar of the first solo.

Ah yes, but he has no one comping behind him - just bass and congas. The type of accompaniment (and who is doing it) can make a world of difference.

[pamosmusic]

Ah yes, but he has no one comping behind him - just bass and congas. The type of accompaniment (and who is doing it) can make a world of difference.

Can, but usually doesn’t.

[garybaldy]

Can anyone advise on how a DbMaj7 arpeggio works over a G7 chord?

I get how a FMaj7 would clearly work. But, I'm looking at a piece that's using DbMaj7.

Thanks,

Tony B

Our brains process sound in a part of the brain that also processes emotions, which can affect how we like what we hear.

[CliffR]

Start with the 3rd bar of the first solo.
Pat Martino plays the same thing on Donna Lee.

Jens Larsen has an excellent video where he looks at various licks from this solo. I recently asked him about this very lick (which he doesn't cover in his video) because I couldn't understand it. He told me to think of it as an arpeggio off the 7th of the tritone sub. So F7 -> B7 -> AM7

[StevenA]

Jens Larsen has an excellent video where he looks at various licks from this solo. I recently asked him about this very lick (which he doesn't cover in his video) because I couldn't understand it. He told me to think of it as an arpeggio off the 7th of the tritone sub. So F7 -> B7 -> AM7

Yes, and of course if you want to simplify all this theory, remember you can always sub 1/2 step above and below the chord that you are resolving to and coming from:
F7 >Bbmaj7
F7>Amaj7>Bbmaj7
F7>Bmaj7>Bbmaj7
and
F7>Ema7>Bbmaj7
F7>F#maj7>Bbmaj7

[Christian Miller]

Yes, and of course if you want to simplify all this theory, remember you can always sub 1/2 step above and below the chord that you are resolving to and coming from:
F7 >Bbmaj7
F7>Amaj7>Bbmaj7
F7>Bmaj7>Bbmaj7
and
F7>Ema7>Bbmaj7
F7>F#maj7>Bbmaj7

Works for me


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[Christian Miller]

It’s interesting that ‘sour’ for example should be seen as a bad thing. If you are a chef for instance a sour flavour might be just the thing to lift a dish.

One of the most important things to learn as a player is how to use dissonance. Taken at face value the chord scale system seems to be about avoiding dissonance. Even the (misnamed imo) ‘tensions’ are in fact ‘extensions’ or colours. They may in fact be the notes you sit on. The actual tensions are ‘avoid notes’ and therefore the implication is that they are completely verboten, inherently clams. Language can create hang ups!

The real principle at work in resolving dominant chords in functional jazz playing is voice leading, not colouristic note stacking.

(In any case I think CST as is usually presented is a poor framing of colouristic layered jazz tonality, not wrong, just sort of upside down. But that’s another screed lol. )


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[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

It’s interesting that ‘sour’ for example should be seen as a bad thing. If you are a chef for instance a sour flavour might be just the thing to lift a dish. [...]

+1 from a Kraut chef.

[Mick-7]

Yes, and of course if you want to simplify all this theory, remember you can always sub 1/2 step above and below the chord that you are resolving to and coming from:
F7 >Bbmaj7
F7>Amaj7>Bbmaj7
F7>Bmaj7>Bbmaj7
and
F7>Ema7>Bbmaj7
F7>F#maj7>Bbmaj7

So then, the common denominator here is at least two shared chord tones between the Dom. 7th (alt) chord and Maj.7 substitute.
Maj.7b5 or Maj.7#5 chord subs are less dissonant.

F7>Amaj7 (= #5/#9/3rd)
F7>Bmaj7 (= b5/b9/b7)
F7>Emaj7 (= b5/#9/b7)
F7>F#maj7 (= #5/b9)

[StevenA]

So then, the common denominator here is at least two shared chord tones between the Dom. 7th (alt) chord and Maj.7 substitute.
Maj.7b5 or Maj.7#5 chord subs are less dissonant.

F7>Amaj7 (= #5/#9/3rd)
F7>Bmaj7 (= b5/b9/b7)
F7>Emaj7 (= b5/#9/b7)
F7>F#maj7 (= #5/b9)

Good analysis, but rather than think about altered tones, as they relate to F7, I would suggest thinking about resolutions: Amaj7/Bmaj7/Emaj7 are all 4 1/2 steps away from Bbmaj7, while F#maj7 is 2 1/2 steps and 2 shared tones. Playing these subs over a static F7 can be uncomfortable, it isn’t until you get to Bbmaj7 that they show their usefulness.

[Mick-7]

Good analysis, but rather than think about altered tones, as they relate to F7, I would suggest thinking about resolutions: Amaj7/Bmaj7/Emaj7 are all 4 1/2 steps away from Bbmaj7, while F#maj7 is 2 1/2 steps and 2 shared tones. Playing these subs over a static F7 can be uncomfortable, it isn’t until you get to Bbmaj7 that they show their usefulness.

Personally, I see no advantage to thinking of chord arpeggios vs. just thinking of all of a chord's altered tones. In fact, the latter is less complicated.

[pamosmusic]

Personally, I see no advantage to thinking of chord arpeggios vs. just thinking of all of a chord's altered tones. In fact, the latter is less complicated.

If you think of upper structure arpeggios then all the upper extensions of a chord become something you already know and have already established vocabulary for.

I wish I could get altered sounds.

I could learn the melodic minor scale or focus on targeting a new set of extensions.

Or I could just play that minor lick a half step up from the root.

[Mick-7]

If you think of upper structure arpeggios then all the upper extensions of a chord become something you already know and have already established vocabulary for.

I wish I could get altered sounds.

I could learn the melodic minor scale or focus on targeting a new set of extensions.

Or I could just play that minor lick a half step up from the root.

I tend to use altered tones as passing or ornamental notes, a means to improvise phrases that flow over the chord changes. I don't usually hear lines in terms of altered tone sets, e.g., altered chord arpeggios, and there are very few musicians who can make this strategy sound natural vs. sounding like a gimmick: "insert this scale pattern here." I find pattern playing shredders to be an absolute bore.