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Mark and Philco - quick diversion (don't want to totally derail). I noticed that both of you guys have shaped nails for finger style playing. When you play finger style do you change your guitar's position into a more classical arrangement (or maybe just play an actual classical guitar)? I've been doing a lot of solo guitar lately, and have been using no nails, but I'm feeling like it's starting to limit what I do, and am just curious about what other folks are doing.
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06-22-2014 09:56 AM
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Henry Johnson was mentioned (and pictured) above.
Thought some footage of him in action might be interesting.
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This whole concert is up on YouTube. He crushes it on Days of Wine.
Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
If you find Caravan he demoes some pretty frightening chops towards the end of the solo. I really dig his playing so much, and he gets the best tone of any Benson picker, to my ears.
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Henry's been a favorite of mine for years. Very classy guy too. If you haven't heard the CD "An Evening At Sea" it's a must . . for any HJ fan. Originally Posted by ecj
Oh, by the way . . that's a pretty cool looking guitar too. I wonder if that might have just a wee bit to do with Henry's great tone.
Henry has a few of them. My favorite is the blond he took with him on the "An Evening At Sea" CD. It's a given that even though the CD was recorded live . . the master mix down was studio enhanced. But, the tone is just fantastic.
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ecj> not sure if you've seen this vid . . but, if you que it up to 9 minutes in, you'l get a great close up of HJ's technique. Notice he anchors on the pick gurad more often than not. Also, notice that while incorporating what we've come to know as the Benson technique . . the angle of his pick is not nearly as dramatic as some suggest it should be. I believe that's the reason his tone is less "harsh or scrill" for lack of better adjectives . . . and may also be the reason you like his tone best . . of the many "Benson pickers" out there.
That's what I love most about HJ. He's a bit of GB . . but mostly HJ. He's a bit of Wes . . but mostly HJ. IMO, that's true of his lines, his comping and his tone.
Oh, The blind guy . . Rory Hoffman . . he aint too awful bad either!
Kenny Burrell at NAMM 2004 with Rory Hoffman and Henry Johnson. - YouTube
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Heritage amps are everywhere...
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 06-22-2014 at 01:07 PM.
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Let's talk thumb.
Some Benson / Stylles pickers seem to have their thumb bent back. (I don't know of anyone who plays this way with a cocked thumb.) But the thumb ain't a straight thing to start with, so the way a player's thumb may look and the way the force is moving through the thumb to the pick might be different.
I've been thinking about this today because of a private conversation with another Benson / Stylles picker and realized I had never thought about how I was using my thumb. But it turns out there's a lot of area between 'bent back' (which is not a problem for me to do but I'm not sure it's the best thing to do) something closer to straight.
Thoughts? (Not just about me, but about your own thumb and this style of picking.)
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1. I don't see any reason you can't use round wounds. I play a strat for some occasions with round wounds and I haven't had a problem. Originally Posted by monk
2. I use heavy gauge strings not because of the technique but because I prefer the sound and feel. La Bella 15-56 flat wound on my Heritage Super Eagle and Thomastic 14-55 flat wound on my Gibson Super V. Honestly I think you could use this technique on whatever string gauge you find most comfortable.
3.I know some guitars present problems because of their hardware. Honestly I can't remember the last time I played a Tele so I can't give you a definite answer about that.
4. I don't know about J.C.'s video. Haven't seen it but it seems a lot of people on this forum are giving it the thumbs up.
Mark
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Hi Patrick, Originally Posted by Patrick2
I stopped playing with a conventional grip 20 years ago so to try and play something now would be embarrassing for both of us.
Mark
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I play some classical so I have my nails grown out right now. When I do this it's on a nylon string guitar and I'm positioning the guitar in the traditional way on the left knee with a footstool. For finger style on my jazz guitars I always keep the guitar position on my right knee. Originally Posted by ecj
Last edited by setemupjoe; 06-22-2014 at 01:52 PM. Reason: spelling
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Some people's thumbs seem to bend way back. Look at Wes's thumb. Other people like myself have it much straighter. Either way though the thumb joint needs to be locked. No flapping the joint in and out. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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Mark, Originally Posted by setemupjoe
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I agree that heavy strings sound do better. Using .011-50 with an unwound third seems to be the limit for the kinds of jobs I've been playing.
Thanks again,
Jerome
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Right. Here's the thing. My thumb bends back without any trouble but there's no real push from it. Also, it means it's the pad of my thumb, and the lower pad at that, which presses against the pick. Today I've worked on making the upper right tip of the thumb be the point of contact with the pick. This doesn't make my wrist cock by any means, but it's not bent all the way back either. It's actually straighter than before. I'll mess around with it for a bit before making another video. Originally Posted by setemupjoe
Another way to put this is that I'm not sure what "locked" feels like. I know when it's bent back, it doesn't move any, but it doesn't feel any more "locked" than when it's fairly straight but not bent back. (Does "locked" really mean "not cocked"?)
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I think the main thing is that the thumb joint shouldn't be moving. Everyone's thumb is different so the angle of the thumb when locked differs according to everyone's own physiology. As long as you're not "flapping" your thumb, that is, engaging the thumb joint, you should be fine. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Mark
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i do quite a bit of acoustic steel string finger picking for my work. I grew up working out the finger picking styles of early Dylan, Simon and Garfunkle, Donovan, Peter Paul and Mary, Feliciano etc. So I always need some nail on my right hand. The only thing I have to watch re the BT is the length of the thumb nail. It has to be shorter otherwise it presses on the plectrum. Originally Posted by ecj
I don't change the way I hold the guitar at all.
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I don't think round wounds are out of the question. I'm stuck here in London with only an acoustic guitar and it's strung with Phosphor Bronze rounds. I can actually use the technique on it. Originally Posted by monk
The trick is to change the angle of the pick to accommodate. Very easy to do so. Less angle = less scrape noise. I don't seem to lose any speed.
On my jazz guitars I'm using Thomastik Benson .012 to .053 but I do swap out the first 2 strings for a .014 and .018. I think 3625 is using .011
I like the heavier gauges because the string does not move much. Especially the bass strings. It's much easier to be articulate on the bass strings if they just sit there and don't vibrate too much. I also try hard to play in a staccato style. Just a personal preference.
This is something you will have to experiment with. Everyone will have there preference. I have no proof of the different ballistics involved.
A Fender Telecaster will sound great using this technique with Flat Wound strings. You may have to adjust the hand position because of the lack of a raised scratch plate. Round wounds may work but there would definitely be some scrape sound. The switch can be reversed (rewired) so it is out of the way.
I have the JC Styles video and it helped a lot. My only concern was that you never got to see the pick hand and grip close up (as in over the shoulder view). I would still recommend the video though. I do keep going back to it. I have been told that if you have the personal coaching you will get much clearer videos that will remove any guess work. I ended up concocting my own style of the BT that I am still adjusting from time to time so I haven't done the personal coaching thing.Last edited by Philco; 06-22-2014 at 06:51 PM.
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I haven't gone the personal coaching route either, though if money weren't an issue, I would have. I think the video tutorial is well worth the money.
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Hey Patrick - yes this is a great vid. It's on my list of favorites that I look back on from time-to-time to double check my technique. Henry's technique is so perfect - he just has that really spot on approach to jazz guitar that seems so direct. There are no superfluous notes. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Thanks Philco. Your answers are most helpful.
Regards,
Jerome
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Martin Taylor gets so much press these days for his fingerstyle playing that folks don't talk much about his plectrum playing. But when he was playing with Stephane Grappelli and on his later group recordings, MT played some fine music with a pick.
Due to the overwhelming number of solo videos,it's difficult to find videos of him playing with a pick but I've found a few and he appears to be using the same grip as the previously mentioned players.
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Quick question - do any of you folks lose any volume using this style of picking. When I pick this way my volume is way way down. I can't seem to get a nice attack on the strings.
Thanks guys.
edh
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Are you picking with a rest stroke? This should allow you to pick quite forcefully without the pick moving too far beyond the initial stroke. I find I can get a stronger tone with this technique than when I played with a traditional grip. Originally Posted by edh
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Yes I have had online coaching from JC, when he first started the project, and will say that he is very attentive to the emails that he receives. It's very useful if you can send him video clips of your playing from various angles and, in my case, he responded very quickly with detailed suggestions and often with supporting video clips of his own. My tip of the day would be to make sure that you can prioritize the technical aspects of your playing whilst signed up with JC, and perhaps get some double time licks under your fingers so you can actually demonstrate where your technique starts to break down. Guitar time is at a premium for me at the moment but when I get to the stage where I can justify the time spent on fine tuning my technique, JC is the man who I will contact. I think that he is a good teacher in that he genuinely wants you to 'get it'.
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It seemed that way to me at first but not so much now. There are ways to hold a pick that yield less volume but the more I get closer to 'right' with this, the more I'm getting the volume back. So my take (-provisional, of course, from one far from the mountaintop) is that when you get it right (or one of the few right ways) the attack is good and the volume is there. Originally Posted by edh
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Thanks, Stu. I'm happy to hear that. It looks like August will be my first chance to do a members-only month. I'm looking forward to it. Meanwhile, the company's not so bad here! ;o) We've got quite a little club started.... Originally Posted by Stu Foley
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