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Loving it.
Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
I guess I have to admit to myself, my brain doesn't track the blistering up tempo lines so well, I prefer the slower lines. And I always dig a deep groove. Thanks for posting.
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09-24-2014 06:15 PM
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Yeah, I looked for a higher res one but no luck. You can see Tal Farlow's pick further down on the far left column, it's a Gibson heavy where he's rounded off the tip. Originally Posted by bluemusic4us
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
in this video you see Joe taking out a new pick and breaking it with his fingers.
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Cool, I look forward to seeing that. Won't be tonight, though---too much on my plate. Originally Posted by bluemusic4us
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It's at 2:14 in on the right screen. He takes one out of the bag and just breaks it in half.
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That's so cool! Thanks. What a master! Originally Posted by bluemusic4us
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Rich is like Schrodinger's Guitarist. Originally Posted by Richb
From his position as an anonymous internet commentator, he exists in a state of quantum indeterminacy with regards to his playing ability. Can he play, or can't he? No one will know until he posts clips. Until that time, all we can do is speculate and regard him both as a heavy-weight player whose opinions are grounded in an intimate practitioner's understanding of the art form, and as a highly-vocal know-nothing whose words fly faster than his hands.
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Clips of Rich's playing have been posted. Rich doesn't claim to be a good guitarist himself. He just tends to claim no one else is either. ;o) Originally Posted by ecj
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09-26-2014, 05:50 AM #859destinytot Guest
"Tell the truth and shame the devil."
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JC's deal for Forum members expires on 7 October, his birthday. (Ironically, it is my birthday too, which means I have something in common with a great guitar player, I just wish the 'something' was that I was a great guitar player too....)
(If you're interested, PM me for details.)
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A week without a post? Could 32 pages be the limit of this great thread? I hope not....
By the way, I've noticed that since switching to Pro-Plec picks, I find it easier to get a secure grip on the top shoulder of the pick the way Philco showed in the OP video.
The Pro-Plec is thicker than a Fender Medium, which means less flex, but I just found it easier to grip this way.
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I love the pro-pleks. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
On the original topic, I'd like to hear some before/after clips of those of you who are adopting this technique (and I mean real blowing, not scale exercises which I don't think reveal anything about its true value) and feel it has improved their playing. Just want to hear the difference, not so interested in absolutes.
I've been messing with it just to test drive it, although I think picking technique is besides the point for how I hear things. I use it when I'm doing my sight reading practice every day, since that is basically slow controlled playing I figure I'm giving myself a chance to get the mechanics in place. But my attempts with improvising using it, although getting better, don't convince me that it gets me closer to what I want to play.
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I've been through quite a lot of adjustments over the past year re the tech.
Tried so many different picks.
Tried so many different thumb/index grips.
One thing JC Styles stresses in his instructional video is that he found it important to get the hand shape to look like GB's.
I could never really do that. My thumb is long and not bendy and I'll be damned if I can keep my index finger bent whilst my thumb is pushing it in the opposite direction. I also cannot keep my 3rd finger tucked under.
So I think my hand shape was more like Sheryl Bailey's……well it was…...
Then I finally discovered a few things.
One of the guy's who posted himself playing on this thread…..and who has since removed all his posts…..hipped us all to a couple of Perry Hughes videos.
Now I have to be careful here because PH isn't EXACTLY the GB tech. But it shares some similarities…..a lot actually.
First off we all noticed that PH had an enormous amount of flex in his pick. In fact my guess is that he is actually using a thin plectrum. It really flexes and I don't mean just moving in his fingers….I mean the pick bends back and forth.
You really can't do that with a FM.
So that's a bit of a distraction to the GB tech. I'm not going down that path. I can't get the control with a thin plectrum.
Anyway the PH vid reminded me of what I loved about the GB tech. Everything was so fluid. From the hand to the pick and with PH even the pick was flexing. Just one big rubbery groove. The opposite to a player with a 2mm pick using a stiff arm.
Pat Martino also looks like rubber when you watch his pick hand.
I digress.
I was kind of cranky that I could not get my grip to look like PH or GB.
Not because I want to ape them but because I thought I wasn't hip to some parts of the tech.
I don't want to spend all this effort labouring under a misapprehension.
Ignorance.
So I really looked at that PH vid and went back and started looking closer at the GB instructional vid.
I observed some things that have changed my tech considerably since my first post.
The following is my opinion only. It won't gel with other people's opinions.
Here's what I have come to believe ….at this point in time.
• There is little or no wrist movement. It's almost all hand movement.
The tech relies on you anchoring your pinky and 3rd finger on the plate.
I don't mean….."my finger slides around"……NO. Your fingers stay there and if you need to play a bass string then your hand reaches across and plays the bass string. You don't slide your fingers around to play that note.
That's why PH and GB look like they are "pointing" at the notes they play.
How do you stop your pinky and 3rd finger from sliding around.
Aha!!!!! big discovery.
GB rests his pinky and 3rd on the high E string. I have 2 videos where it's clear as day. You can see his E string moving whilst he is playing the bass strings. His fingers are not really under the E string but they push on it.
This gives a different level of stability and also explains why I could NEVER get my 3rd finger to tuck under. Well now I can.
Obviously you move the finger when you play the E string. This becomes seamless after a short time.
So to reiterate: You need to anchor and not slide. If you slide then you move your wrist and start that "slicing" up and down motion that you don't see GB or PH doing……because the HAND does the moving.
• How does the hand make the movement?
The hand makes every pick movement an individual movement. What?
Think about this. If your wrist is a lever and your pick is on the end of the lever then the wrist makes the movement and the pick stays in the same position and strikes the string.
If your hand AND thumb pick the note then there is a different angle on every stroke and you're wrist is out of the equation. Smaller movement=efficiency. Better accuracy.
That's another reason why GB looks like he is "pecking" the strings. This motion happens whilst you are anchoring. It's a very small movement of the thumb from it's bass. Go back and look at the PH vid. It's very clear. The thumb is working….it ain't stiff or rigid……nothing is.
• GB and PH use a sort of circular rotation when picking. I haven't figured out any benefit to this but when I do it I notice in the mirror that my hand looks like GB and PH.
• I have plenty of videos where you can clearly see by pausing that GB does not have an angle any more than 45 degrees and most of the time it's less. Same with PH.
• GB DOES use rest strokes some of the time and he also uses economy picking. Crossing strings with 2 down strokes.
And not just for sweeps. He does this when playing straight 8ths or 16th's.
If you slow his instructional video down you can clearly see without any doubt that he is using rest strokes and economy picking.
It's not the complete basis of the tech but it's a part of it.
• GB's pick is always moving between his fingers……a lot. This had me baffled for the longest time.
The solution is simple.
Very light grip on the pick. He hangs a lot of the pick down and grips the pick at the top. Not sure where ….left corner? Right corner? Somewhere in the middle? If you can get the pick to move a lot between your thumb and index then you are on the right path.
• OK another big rule breaker…….I noticed that the thumb is NOT always way behind the index. Sometimes…..and this changes from photo to photo……the thumb tip is almost exactly even with the index.
• One more….GB and PH don't always have a severe bend in the index. PH is straighter than GB but sometimes GB straightens out as well.
Playing this way is actually quite easy and more natural for me.
Ok I have to state again that these are my observations. All gleaned from videos only.
So please use your own judgment. The last thing I want to do is screw somebody's tech.
I can't post the GB instructional vid but here are some pick shots that you may have seen before. In these shots GB is soloing not comping. Note the angle and note the tip of the thumbs relationship to the index. Oh and Mark…..there is the clown vomit plectrum that some expert said was no good for this tech
Last edited by Philco; 10-07-2014 at 07:55 AM.
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Ha! I wonder what ever became of that guy.... ;o) Originally Posted by Philco
. Oh and Mark…..there is the clown vomit plectrum that some expert said was no good for this tech
Seriously, Phil, thanks for the long, detailed post. Too much to absorb and comment on straight away but what leapt out at me was this: >>>>• There is little or no wrist movement. It's almost all hand movement.<<<<
There are times when I've looked down while playing fast (and well) and noticed just that: my wrist doesn't seem to be moving, or not very much at all.
I just finished my long morning practice before logging on (-first things first) so it'll be the afternoon before I play again and try some of these things out.
Again, I greatly appreciate the time and care taken to share your discoveries here. This is what makes this Forum such a great place!
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FYI, I posted a podcast interview with JC Stylles in the Player's section: "JC Stylles in the Doodlin' Lounge"
Check it out
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The other side of the thumb....
JC talks about the upper right portion of the thumb pressing against the pick. That's part of the basic shape. I have no argument with that but I have a new perspective on getting it right.
It started with doing some thumb work, mainly walking bass line / comp work on "All the Things You Are." After doing this for awhile I stopped and looked at my thumb as it prepared to play a note. I thought: shouldn't the point of my pick (when I use one) come at the guitar like the tip of my thumb when I'm playing without one?
So I have experimented with playing without a pick, thumbing my way, and then inserting a pick so that its tip allows my thumb to keep the same position. The pick rests further up the index than before and all seems to flow better.
I realize anything different can seem better right away than it will in a few days. (The player's equivalent of an optical illusion.)
Anyone else thought about the left tip of their thumb in relation to this grip?
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Worked on this again later today and it's making a difference.
I realize that this may prove a big deal for me but no one else because my picking was worse than anyone else's! I seem to find more clearance this way, no (or much less) accidental rubbing / hitting unintended strings...
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So Mark, to clarify - are you using the upper left tip, or is it a bit lower towards the pad?
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The upper right tip is pressed against the pick, as JC suggests. The shape is the same, but when I think about the upper left tip (-the part of my thumb I use when I'm playing without a pick, esp when playing walking bass lines) and place the pick in relation to that, the basic shape is normal but the pick isn't the same place it was before in relation to my index finger. It's much closer to the tip. (This makes it much easier to keep straight, by the way. Mind you, in this context 'straight' means 'not curling inward.') The motion of my thumb is much like it would be if I were playing with it, only I have a pick. It's a very different feel for me. (Not strained or anything, just different.) Originally Posted by 3625
I'll report back tomorrow after another few sessions with it.
How's your playing these days?
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Sounds interesting, but I'm having trouble visualising what you said - text being an obvious limitation for this stuff. Yeah, see how you go and post an update - photos would help if you've got time. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
My playing? Overall, I'm really happy with the progress I've been making recently, but I'm studying full-time atm, and am currently prepping for my end of year exams. Holidays are arriving soon so I'll be able to get more serious with my practice. But the big change for me has been relaxing the pick grip so it flexes and flaps more like GB, which I've noticed has made my swing feel looser. It's been about 10months since I switched to the Benson tech, and one thing I noticed was that my swing feel became a lot more tight and straight - that video I did of Alone Together earlier in this thread has a much straighter time feel than what I previously used to sound like. Two things contributed to that I think: 1/ squeezing the pick too hard, and 2/ having a really steep pick angle about 75 degrees'ish. I noticed the really steep angle is incredibly efficient because as we know the pick doesn't have to travel as far to hit the string - but because of that I was getting to the note too quick and not letting the swing breathe enough. Based off videos, I've noticed GB appears to change up how steep the angle is depending on what he needs to do.
Here's a short clip from a recent practice session:
Last edited by 3625; 10-10-2014 at 11:31 PM.
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Saying the hand makes the movement makes no sense to me. You can't make a movement without using one or more of your joints. You can't say the hand makes the movement, the hand moves, but some joint or hinge has to move. Originally Posted by Philco
Are you saying the finger or thumb joints are making the movement?
I look at those videos and I'm seeing the movement come from the wrist (and perhaps the elbow sometimes). The pinky can be anchored and the wrist can hinge.
If you think the wrist doesn't move, lock it up with left hand and try to pick some notes without any wrist movement. It's possible but it looks very different than Benson's technique and for me it's very difficult. When I do it, making the movement using the first joint of the thumb, the second knuckle of the index finger pulses up and down. I'm not seeing that with Benson.Last edited by fep; 10-10-2014 at 11:42 PM.
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I shouldn't speak in absolutes. Sometimes when emphasising a point I tend to do that. Originally Posted by fep
You're right, of course the wrist has to operate. It would be quite limiting if it didn't.
It's a difficult thing to explain but it will be a light bulb moment if you experience it.
Yes the wrist and hand pivot off the anchor. One of the first things JC points out in his video.
But go and pick some notes on one string and then move to the next string lower in pitch and then the next one.
Except just move your index and thumb across only…. leave your anchor where it is and just move those fingers across. The motion is not generated from your wrist. Your wrist is forced to follow but the movement is coming from your index and thumb.
And then there is a small movement of your thumb and index when you actually pluck the note….once again not generated by the wrist.
Fep…..perhaps you do this anyway and the penny just dropped for me?
Bloody hell it's hard to describe it. I sound like a real loony.Last edited by Philco; 10-11-2014 at 12:02 AM.
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I think one of the things I like the most about this pick grip, is that it seems to work with a lot of different motions.
To get my standard grip going quickly, I need a lot of warmup, and I have to be ultra precise with making sure that my picking motion on one string is the "door knob" wrist rotation without tension. Then I have to be careful to use elbow motion to cross strings without letting any tension bleed into the plucking motion. It's a pain in the ass and really inconsistent, even though I can get things moving almost as fast as with Benson picking on a good day.
With the Benson grip it just doesn't seem to matter as much. Sometimes I get a little sloppy and use elbow motion aggressively. Sometimes I do the "door knock" wrist oscillation thing. Sometimes more the "door knob" rotation. Sometimes it feels like Philco is saying and is mostly just coming from my thumb and finger base joints. Doesn't really seem to interrupt my feel or ability to get the notes out no matter what, which is awesome.
I think the big thing for me is that my shoulder is relaxed when I Benson pick no matter what. With standard grip I'm always fighting the war of tension with my right shoulder. Lose vigilance for one second and it all falls apart.
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Hey, Jon, that sounds good! Originally Posted by 3625
Today is a busy day but maybe I can make a short video tomorrow. Thanks for asking. (Though I apologize for expressing myself so unclearly that you need to see something in order to understand what I tried to say.)
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You don't sound like a loony at all, but yes, this is hard to describe. Partly because when playing we pay attention to what we are newly aware of (-duh) more than what is familiar. So I totally get the sense that the wrist isn't moving (much) and the index/thumb seem to be doing it all. At least sometimes. I've had the same experience. Originally Posted by Philco
This is a practical matter in both senses: 1) it is a kind of doing and we aim to succeed at doing something rather than achieving a theoretical understanding of it, and 2) it is something we want to make habitual, which requires practice.
I think some people have trouble with the idea of this because they have a THEORY of picking and this seems to violate a tenet of it. Such as 'you can't mute properly, so this is no good.' But I think those of us who are still here want to pick accurately, with good tone, and at a higher speed than we achieved with conventional picking and are content to work at whatever might bring about that desired end. It's not the work of a day. Or a month. It's maddeningly trickier than we think it should be. And then there's the matter of keeping the gains one has made...
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