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I made up a bossa nova-style chord progression you can find here:
Here are the chords: Bm11, Bb7b5, Am11, Dm11, Db7b5, Cm11...Ab7b5, Gmaj13, Gm7, C7b9, Fmaj7, E7#5, E7...E7#9.
Now I'd like to solo over it, but I'm finding it difficult. I've been thinking Dorian mode and blues scale over the minor 11 chords. Whole tone scale and altered scale (7th mode of melodic minor), seem to work over the 7b5 chords. (Kind of like altered better than whole tone, as whole tone sounds kind of 'unanchored;' or altered sounds more 'human'?) But I'm finding it hard to create lines that sound natural or melodic, and that also connect or follow the chords.
I also made a video for my youtube channel talking about my conundrum:
If someone is interested and has time on their hands (as many of us do now ;-) ), please record a solo over it and post it somewhere so I can hear it. Thanks and stay safe!
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05-17-2020 04:00 AM
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Thanks ragman1. BTW, what does "CST" mean?
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Chord/Scale Theory - or 'what to play over what'. Not loved by everybody because it can be interpreted too rigidly. Look on it as good tool but not an exclusive one.
Chord-scale system - Wikipedia
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I don’t know how much help this will be, but this is what would go through my head if I saw this chart on my music stand at a gig
Bm11, Bb7b5, Am11 - Am ii-V-I
, Dm11, Db7b5, Cm11 - Dm ii-V-I
...Ab7b5, Gmaj13, - G V-I
Gm7, C7b9, Fmaj7, - F ii-V-I
E7#5, E7...E7#9. - let’s treat this as a little E alt type vamp. Probably use E phrygian dominant for that Spanish tinge
over the ii V I’s I would do the usual ii V I stuff
probably wouldn’t get more into the weed than that, except to note there’s voice leading things in the top voice.
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I think if you have to get into these sorts of questions my post isn’t going to help. As I said I didn’t know if my thought process will help.
Originally Posted by ragman1
As a general road map, getting handy at navigating ii V Is is generally considered a cornerstone of learning to play changes.
When I play I’m never micro - thinking it to that point because I’m thinking of patterns of two, three or four chords at a time working together rather than individual chord/scales. (Though to be honest 90% of the time I’m going to be thinking tritone sub or altered for V7s because that’s just the style for modern jazz.)
I look at a chart and I see this right away, becaus I’ve been doing it for a long time. it’s like reading sentences as opposed to individual words...
it takes time, transcription and practice to get this together.
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If you look for a complex explanation that’s what you will find. Originally Posted by ragman1
how about for the first few chords we have ‘come up with good melodies in Am?’, then Cm, then G, then F
If you can’t do that, scales aren’t the answer. Listening to and working out melodies by ear would be a better example.
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Yes, I'd go for that. It needs a tune, not just chords. Anyway, it's a folky thing, to slide the Am up to Bm and back even if the rest of it's solidly in A minor. 'Summertime' does that somewhat.how about for the first few chords we have ‘come up with good melodies in Am?’
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There’s also the germs of melodies implied by the top voice of the chords....
Bm11, Bb7b5, Am11
E E D
, Dm11, Db7b5, Cm11
G G F
...Ab7b5, Gmaj13, - G V-I
D D
Gm7, C7b9, Fmaj7, - F ii-V-I
D Db C
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I've just come up with a really Kurt Rosenwinkel ish melody over this - it reminds me a bit of his tune Caipi.
I tried recording it but my two year old screamed 'CHOO CHOO TRAAAAINS!!!!!' at me half way through with some vehemence, so I'll have to record it later. Maybe she wanted something a little more Ellingtonian?
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Gotta say mate, the form is much harder than the changes. Originally Posted by DavesGuitarPlanet
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Sounds a bit like a re-harm of ‘One-Note Samba’ to me.
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Yea... your hinting at pretty straight ahead harmony. How you would make analysis would need choices.
Is the tunes tonal reference "Gmaj." and you modulate or are using Modal Interchange with other expanded Tonal areas. A A' B A
I listened to most of it.... and sounded like Gmaj with expanded tonal relationships with The "B" section the most expanded. So...
As said above....The "A" section... B-11 Bb7#11 A-11 Bb7#11, is Min. II V I . But We don't know that the Tonal reference is "G" maj yes. So we naturally hear B-11 Bb7#11/ A-11 Bb7#11/ as
B-11... is a VII-7b5 Locrian B-7b5, the use of B-11 camouflages
Bb7b5 ... is sub for E7alt... or B7#11..
A-11 .... implies Aeolian or a VI-7 type of tonic function
So your playing with subs for the implied chords and playing with the standard chord progression... Your expanding a standard Chord Pattern.... Depending on how well you play.... would result with how many choices you have for NOTE collections to create melody and improv. The progression is slow enough that you can make any of the chords as a micro Tonal Target. Which gives you freedom to create harmonic references with each chord and then develop and connect those relationships.
Simple version.... II-7b5 V7alt / I-7.... with A-7 or nat. Min as your reference..... then up a Min. 3rd, to C-7 for 2nd "A" So like... One Note Samba and Recordame
The "B" section sounded like you went to Parallel Minor... G-7 (Modal Interchange to Dorian), But then use that G-7 to get to Fmaj. So just... II V I again. Your E7#5 E7 sounded like B-7b5 to E7. Like you were going to A-7. But was just an expanded tonal feel of Fmaj. or a reference to The "A" section in A-7. Options
This would be the REFERENCE.... where you progression comes from.
You can camouflage or make your version of progression....but generally there is a Reference, where your progression comes from.
I'm a pro... I would just make choices and develop them... simple version. "A" section, Macro tonal Target of Amin..... and then up to C- for second "A'' section. The "B" section would be Tonal Target of "Fmaj" and back to A- for last "A" section.
And sure create a Melody... using common tones or other melodic devices for harmonic movement. Melodies are created the same way... they have a Form with targets and connections. When you create by ear.... the results are limited by what you can hear... or what you had to eat earlier, or what type of mood your in... etc...
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Wow...19 thick responses so far ! I'm overwhelmed. Late here in Bangkok, where I live, so I'll reread and try to digest tomorrow. I've also already concocted a 'head' or melody, that I like pretty well...so I'll try to record and post that tomorrow. Yes: If I had to name a key, it would be G. (The E7#9 does strongly imply Am though at that point I guess. Maybe I should try D7#9 instead?) So, I started by thinking Am was the ii chord, and Bm the iii chord. Since the 3rd mode of major scale is Phrygian, I tried that over the Bm11...but it didn't seem to work. Dorian seems like 'default jazz minor,' and that seemed to work better over the Bm11....
Well, obviously I'm not really a jazz player (played in cover bands long ago). But I'm trying to learn more about jazz during "the pause" we're all in.
Interesting what some of you have said about thinking of things like minor ii-V-i. That could help. Anyhow, this is all an interesting exercise. I came up with the progression a few years ago. I thought it sounded kind of cool, but couldn't figure out how to solo over it. Maybe I never will, but it's interesting to try. Until tomorrow. :-)
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and once I heard that it was easier to play Originally Posted by grahambop
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yes, can get some ideas from Stan and Charlie. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I'm going to chime in here with something the regulars have heard before, so apologies to them. Originally Posted by DavesGuitarPlanet
The scale based approach obviously works, although perhaps no two players think about it exactly the same way.
But your question is how to solo over it, not how to apply scales to it.
So, I would suggest playing the chords and scat-singing. When you sing something you like, put it on the guitar.
An advantage, arguably, is that doing this will limit you to playing what you can hear/imagine, which can add immediacy or emotional connection to the music. A disadantage might be that the solo comes out too vanilla sounding - that's something that can be worked on in a variety of ways, typically, transcription or applications of theory -- and, in my view, it's best one sound at a time. So, for example, take a ii V I (or reharm thereof) and work on different ways to play over it, by ear, by copying a line you like, or by finding something with theory.
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Yes, I could demonstrate it.
But, I'd rather do it on an established tune, with a melody.
When I know a tune, I sing to myself and try to put that on the guitar. When I start thinking about scales is usually when the solo starts to suck.
I have spent time in the shed working on expanding my ability to spontaneously generate more interesting lines, in terms of harmony.
I am often in situations where I'm reading something for the first time, sometimes with non-obvious harmony, and have to use theory to avoid clams. I'm not arguing against that at all -- but others covered that approach better than I could.
All that said, I am absolutely not the most advanced player on this forum.
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Or just try to make nice melodies.
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Is that supposed to be "Cm ii-V-I"? Originally Posted by christianm77
Nice post BTW.
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See, I would most definitely have not let that stop me Originally Posted by christianm77
My brain is tired and I've had whiskey, but those first 6 chords are clear minor ii V i's to my ears.
I like it quite a bit, I mess around with it more tomorrow.
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yes Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Today I put my head/melody on top of the progression, then did a bit of noodling for a couple more choruses. Before anyone says how much I suck at the soloing part, I AGREE WITH YOU. I didn't spend any time today looking at all the suggestions y'all have written. Maybe I'll do that tomorrow. And, not sure if I'll read any more replies (if there are any), today. But: If you haven't, I'd really be interested to hear what 'someone who knows what they're doing' sounds like soloing over the progression. Thanks and be safe, Dave P.
Last edited by DavesGuitarPlanet; 05-18-2020 at 11:59 AM. Reason: original video was out of sync
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Cool Dave.... disclaimer, I am an advanced player.
So your melody sounds cool. But it kind of jumps around harmonically. By that I mean. I hear Bmin pentatonic over the B-11 Bb7#11...then jump to Amin pent. for the A-11. You melody somewhat ignores the Bb7#11. Which is not a problem ... and then same for the up a 3rd to D-11 etc... Are you using the grace or slide into "A" as implying the Bb7#11. It works... The shape of your melody is great, statements with secondary level of organization for end of licks.... But the progression really implies "Amin." which really implies that that B-11 Bb7#11 (or Bb7b5) implies that the B-11 is more in the direction of B-7b5 E7alt... or something from that II- V7 pattern. It's all good but you might change the Bb7b5 to F7#9 ....going back to B-11.
/ B-11 / Bb7b5 / A-11 /.... either / Bb7b5 F#7#9 / or just / F#7#9 / to help get you to B-11. What I'm doing is helping the Harmonic Rhythm of your changes work more naturally with your melody...
/ B-11... / B-11. Bb7b5. / A-11... / A-11. F#7#9. /
Just suggestions... there are no rules and if there are, is cool to break them. If sounds interesting... let me know and we can keep going.
...Ragman.... you post too many examples...
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I think you're melody's excellent, Dave. Wish I'd thought of it myself!
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I totally agree. My goal is to play lines that sound like something you might hum or sing. To me, all the best players (or my favorite ones at least), play this way. Hopefully, if you listen to the melody/head I came up with, it is 'tuneful,' and something the listener can access. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
But what I'm still finding hard is to come up with lines in a solo section that sound equally natural.
I'd love to hear some others give it a whack. :-)
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